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Re: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

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  • George F Somsel
    13.18 ἑξήκοντα ἕξ {A} Instead of ἑξήκοντα, which is strongly supported by P א A P 046 051 all extant minuscules it vg syr, cop, arm
    Message 1 of 47 , Dec 6, 2007
      13.18 ἑξήκοντα ἕξ {A}
      Instead of ἑξήκοντα, which is strongly supported by P א A P 046 051 all extant minuscules it vg syr, cop, arm al, δέκα is read by C some manuscripts known to Irenaeus (who, however, says that 666 is found “in all good and ancient copies,” and is “attested by those who had themselves seen John face to face”) and Tyconius. According to Tischendorf’s 8th ed., the numeral 616 was also read by two minuscule manuscripts that unfortunately are no longer extant (nos. 5 and 11; cf. C. R. Gregory, Prolegomena, p. 676). When Greek letters are used as numerals the difference between 666 and 616 is merely a change from ξ to ι (666 = χξς and 616 = χις). Perhaps the change was intentional, seeing that the Greek form Nero Caesar written in Hebrew characters (‮נרון קסר‬) is equivalent to 666, whereas the Latin form Nero Caesar (‮נרו קסר‬) is equivalent to 616.

      Metzger, B. M., & United Bible Societies. (1994). A textual commentary on the Greek New Testament, second edition a companion volume to the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament (4th rev. ed.) (676). London; New York: United Bible Societies.


      χξσ́ ut B(perperam in ed. mea σ́ pro σ́. Idem vitium in cod. 28.) 1. 6. 14. 28. 30. 32. 35. 36. 38. 49. 79. 91. 96. 97. al mu Hippbis Andc Are, item cop … א εξακοσιαι (-ιαι et. C) εξηκοντα εξ, A εξακοσιοι εξηκ. εξ, atque sic Ln, P 7. 16. 29. 95. Andp etbav (item a) εξακοσια εξη. (Anda c bavadd και) εξ. Confirmant Irint 326 (“et esse numerum sexcentos sexaginta sex, quod est sexies centeni et deni sexies et singulares sex”), Victorin et Prim (vide infra) … C 11. “quidam” ap Ir εξακουσιαι δεκα εξ, 5. χισ́, item anonymaug sexcenti sexdecim. Disserit autem Ir328 in hanc rem sic: His autem sic se habentibus et in omnibus antiquis et probatissimis et veteribus scripturis numero hoc posito et testimonium perhibentibus his qui facie ad faciem Iohannem viderunt, et ratione docente nos quoniam numerus nominis bestiae secundum Graecorum computationem per litteras quae in
      eo sunt, sexcentos habebit et sexaginta et sex, hoc est decadas aequales hecatontasin et hecatontadas aequales monasin (ap Eushist 5,8 τούτων δὲ οὕτως ἐχόντων καὶ ἐν πᾶσι τοῖς σπουδαίοις καὶ ἀρχαίοις ἀντιγράφοις τοῦ ἀριθμοῦ τούτου κειμένου, καὶ μαρτυρούντων αὐτῶν ἐκείνων τῶν κατ᾽ ὄψιν τὸν ἰωάννην ἑωρακότων, καὶ τοῦ λόγου διδάσκοντος ἡμᾶς ὅτι ὁ ἀριθμὸς τοῦ ὀνό- ματος τοῦ θηρίου κατὰ τὴν τῶν ἑλλήνων ψῆφον διὰ τῶν ἐν αὐτῷ γραμμάτων ἐμφαίνεται) - ignoro quomodo erraverunt quidam sequentes idiotismum et medium frustrantes numerum nominis, quinquaginta numeros deducentes, pro sex decadis unam decadem volentes esse (vide quae his respondent Graeca ap Stieren p.
      798). Hoc autem arbitror scriptorum peccatum fuisse, ut solet fieri, quoniam et per litteras numeri ponuntur, facile litteram Graecam quae sexaginta enuntiat numerum in iota Graecorum litteram expansam; post deinde quidam sine exquisitione (ανεξεταστως) hoc acceperunt, alii quidem simpliciter et idiotice usurpaverunt denarium numerum; quidam autem per ignorantiam ausi sunt et nomina exquirere habentia falsum erroris numerum (ἐτόλμησαν καὶ ὄνομα ἀναζητεῖν ἔχον τὸν ἐσφαλμένον καὶ διημαρτημένον ἀριθμόν). Sed his quidem qui simpliciter et sine malitia hoc fecerunt arbitramur veniam dari a deo. Quotquot autem secundum ianem gloriam statuunt nomina continentia falsum numerum, et quod a se fuerit adinventum nomen definierunt esse illius qui venturus est, non sine damno tales exient, quippe qui et semetipsos et credentes sibi seduxerunt. Eundem vero numerum χισ́ sequitur
      etiam Tichonius (idem qui anonymaug : Sexcenti et sexdecim graecis litteris sic fiant χισ́. Quae notae solutae numerus est; redactae autem in monogrammum et notam faciunt et numerum et nomen. Hoc signum Christi intelligitur et ipsius ostenditur similitudo, quam in veritate colit ecclesia. In eum vero numerum quem et ipsi recepimus haec add Irint 329: certius ergo et sine periculo est sustinere adimpletionem prophetiae quam suspicari et divinare nomina quaelibet, quando multa nomina inveniri possunt habentia praedictum numerum - ευανθας enim nomen habet numerum de quo quaeritur, sed nihil de eo affirmamus. Sed et λατεινος nomen habet sexcentorum sexaginta sex numerum, et valde verisimile est, quoniam novissimum regnum hoc habet vocabulum. Latini enim sunt qui nunc regnant, sed non in hoc nos gloriabimur. Sed et τειταν, prima syllaba per duas graecas vocales ε et ι scripta, omnium nominum quae apud nos inveniuntur magis
      fide dignum est. Etc. Item haec scripsit Victorin: Sicut ex litteris graecis computum habent, sic in compluribus τειταν inveniuntur. τειταν enim hunc numerum habet quem gentiles Solem Phoebumque apellant, computaturque graece sic: τ trecenti, ε quinque, ι decem, τ trecenti, α unum, ν quinquaginta, qui simul ducti fiunt sexcenti sexaginta sex. Quantum enim attinet ad litteras graecas, hunc numerum nomenque explent; quod nomen si velis in latinum convertere, intelligitur per antiphrasin dielux, quae litterae hoc modo computantur: D quippe quingenti figurat, I unum, C centum, L quinquaginta, V quinque, X decem, quod computatis litteris facit similiter sexcenti sexaginta sex, id est quod graece sonat τειταν, nempe id quod latine dicitur dielux, quo nomine per antiphrasin expresso intelligimus Antichristum -. Item invenimus in quodam codice graeco αντεμος, quibus computatis litteris invenies numerum ut supra, α unum, ν
      quinqaginta, τ trecenti, ε quinque, μ quadraginta, ο septuaginta, σ‌ ducenti, quae simul sexcenti sexaginta sex secundum Graecos faciunt. Item aliud eius nomen gothice quod per se liquebit, id est γενσηρικος, quod eodem modo graecis litteris computabis, γ tres, ε quinque, ν quinquaginta, σ‌ ducenti, η octo, ρ centum, ι decem, κ viginti, ο septuaginta, σ‌ item ducenti: quae, ut supra dictum est, sexcenti sexaginta sex faciunt. Similiter de αντεμος aliisque nominibus ad h. l. scribit Prim. Item And ὡς ἐν γυμνασίας τε λόγω πολλά ἐστιν εὑρεῖν, κατὰ τὸν μακάριον ἱππόλυτον καὶ ἑτέρους, ὀνόματα τὸν ἀριθμὸν τοῦτον περιέχοντα, προσηγορικά τε καὶ κύρια. κύρια μὲν οἷον λαμπέτις, τειτάν. ἐκ τοῦ τείνω καθ᾽ ἱππόλυτον, λατεῖνος -
      βενέδικτος - προσηγορικὰ δὲ κακὸς ὁδηγός, παλαιβάσκανος, ἀληθὴς βλαβερός, ἀμνὸς ἄδικος etc. Similiter Are. Cf etiam Or3,414 ubi ad Ezech. 4:9 de senario numero scribitur ἐπείπερ ἐστὶν ὁ ἀριθμὸς οὗτος πάθους σύμβολον καὶ κακώσεως τοῦ σωτῆρος τῇ ἕκτη ἡμέρᾳ πεπονθότος καὶ ἐν τῇ ἀποκαλύψει ἰωάννου τοῦ ὀνόματος τοῦ θηρίου τὸν χξϛ´ (male deest ϛ´) ἔχοντος ἀριθμόν. Quibus addit fluctuare numeros etiam in Ezechielis codicibus.

      Novum Testamentum graece. 1869-94 (C. v. Tischendorf, C. R. Gregory & E. Abbot, Ed.) (2:983-985). Lipsiae: Giesecke & Devrient.


      george
      gfsomsel

      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus
      _________



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: "fjust2000@..." <fjust2000@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 4:58:11 PM
      Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

      Thanks, Paul. Like many or most readers of this list, I'm familiar with gematria and the value of Hebrew nun, and how "Nero(n) Kaisar" could be either 666 or 616, with or without the extra nun.

      But my question was one of textual criticism. Is it so certain which is the more likely original reading?

      There are plenty of reasons why an original 616 would have been changed by later scribes to 666, and I've heard of a few explantions for the opposite direction: why 666 might have been changed to 616. But I thought the ancient manuscript evidence leaned towards 616 as the original reading.

      So, for all those who take 666 for granted and ignore 616, may I repeat the core of my question? Is it so certain, on the basis of all the ancient manuscript evidence, that 666 is the original reading?

      Felix


      Paul Anderson <panderso@georgefox. edu> wrote:
      With Hebrew gematria, the letter "nun" is worth 50 points, so "Nero Kaisar" = 616. As the second beast rising up out of the sea, however, the pressing affliction at the time of Revelation's finalization is likely Domitian, who is just as bad (if not worse) as Nero.

      Eugene Boring in his Interpretation commentary on Revelation has an excellent treatment of gematria, as do several others.

      Paul Anderson

      -----Original Message-----
      From: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
      Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 1:03 PM
      To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [revelation- list] Re: Nero

      In order for 666 to be construed as referring to Nero it must be transliterated into Hebrew and read as "Neròn Kaisar." This is likely the reason that the reading 616 arose since it does not require such change. This apparently arose at an early date as is evidenced by P.Oxy. 4499.

      http://www.papyrolo gy.ox.ac. uk/POxy/beast/ beast616. html

      george
      gfsomsel

      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus
      _________

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: "fjust2000@yahoo. com" <fjust2000@yahoo. com>
      To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 3:19:27 PM
      Subject: Re: [revelation- list] Re: Nero

      I haven't had a chance to read Bauckham yet on this, but does he also deal with the variant reading 616 ? Could someone summarize his position?

      And is there any consensus these days, at least among members of this group, about whether the text of Rev 13:18 originally read 616 or 666 ?

      I'm rather surprised that all of the recent postings on this forum have mentioned only 666, and no one (that I can recall) has discussed the implicatins for the question of dating if the original was actually 616.

      And could a change from 616 to 666 also be an indication that there may have been multiple editions of Rev, one of which might be earlier (ca. Nero), and one (or more) editions later?

      Felix

      Ian Paul <editor@grovebooks. co.uk> wrote:
      Yes, Bauckham does discuss the idea of Nero as beast quite
      extensively. But he relates it in particular to the myth of Nero
      redivivus as an eschatological rival to the return of Christ.

      The chapter on this is so substantial that I think I would counsel
      against anyone saying anything about 666 or Nero without having read
      this very carefully, and being able to offer some very thorough
      replies to the position Bauckham sets out!

      On 6 Dec 2007, at 05:24, neroad70 wrote:

      > Thanks Rob; I have just ordered the book! Does he discuss early
      > Christian belief that Nero was the beast? I guess what I am trying to
      > nail down, is whether the early Christians did indeed believe this.
      > Kistemaker in his commentary suggests that the idea that Nero was the
      > beast was a very recent notion.
      >
      > So in short, either there is documentation proving that the early
      > church or at least some in the church believed Nero to be the beast or
      > Kistemaker is right. Thats what I want to nail down.

      Ian
      ____________ _____
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      ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
      Rev. Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.
      Director of Biblical Education
      Loyola Institute for Spirituality
      480 S. Batavia St.
      Orange, CA 92868-3907
      office: 714-997-9587
      email: fjust@calprov. org
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    • Laszlo Hubbes
      Dear Dr. Ian R. Brown, I would full-heartedly suggest among many others Christopher Rowland s and Judith Kovacs s volume on Revelation in the Blackwell Bible
      Message 47 of 47 , Dec 10, 2007
        Dear Dr. Ian R. Brown,

        I would full-heartedly suggest among many others

        Christopher Rowland's and Judith Kovacs's volume on Revelation in the
        Blackwell Bible Commentaries series. (Blackwell Publishing, 2004) - A
        brilliant multi-aspect and multi-level commentary on the Apocalypse, with an
        added emphasis on its reception history.

        Best regards,

        Hubbes Laszlo

        >


        --
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        ROMANIA


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