Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

Expand Messages
  • Paul Anderson
    Thanks, Felix, an excellent question! I ll defer to others on the textual analysis for now. Paul ... From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 47 , Dec 6, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks, Felix, an excellent question!

      I'll defer to others on the textual analysis for now.

      Paul

      -----Original Message-----
      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of fjust2000@...
      Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 1:58 PM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

      Thanks, Paul. Like many or most readers of this list, I'm familiar with gematria and the value of Hebrew nun, and how "Nero(n) Kaisar" could be either 666 or 616, with or without the extra nun.

      But my question was one of textual criticism. Is it so certain which is the more likely original reading?

      There are plenty of reasons why an original 616 would have been changed by later scribes to 666, and I've heard of a few explantions for the opposite direction: why 666 might have been changed to 616. But I thought the ancient manuscript evidence leaned towards 616 as the original reading.

      So, for all those who take 666 for granted and ignore 616, may I repeat the core of my question? Is it so certain, on the basis of all the ancient manuscript evidence, that 666 is the original reading?

      Felix


      Paul Anderson <panderso@...> wrote:
      With Hebrew gematria, the letter "nun" is worth 50 points, so "Nero Kaisar" = 616. As the second beast rising up out of the sea, however, the pressing affliction at the time of Revelation's finalization is likely Domitian, who is just as bad (if not worse) as Nero.

      Eugene Boring in his Interpretation commentary on Revelation has an excellent treatment of gematria, as do several others.

      Paul Anderson

      -----Original Message-----
      From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
      Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 1:03 PM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

      In order for 666 to be construed as referring to Nero it must be transliterated into Hebrew and read as "Neròn Kaisar." This is likely the reason that the reading 616 arose since it does not require such change. This apparently arose at an early date as is evidenced by P.Oxy. 4499.

      http://www.papyrology.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast/beast616.html

      george
      gfsomsel

      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus
      _________

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: "fjust2000@..." <fjust2000@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 3:19:27 PM
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

      I haven't had a chance to read Bauckham yet on this, but does he also deal with the variant reading 616 ? Could someone summarize his position?

      And is there any consensus these days, at least among members of this group, about whether the text of Rev 13:18 originally read 616 or 666 ?

      I'm rather surprised that all of the recent postings on this forum have mentioned only 666, and no one (that I can recall) has discussed the implicatins for the question of dating if the original was actually 616.

      And could a change from 616 to 666 also be an indication that there may have been multiple editions of Rev, one of which might be earlier (ca. Nero), and one (or more) editions later?

      Felix

      Ian Paul <editor@grovebooks. co.uk> wrote:
      Yes, Bauckham does discuss the idea of Nero as beast quite
      extensively. But he relates it in particular to the myth of Nero
      redivivus as an eschatological rival to the return of Christ.

      The chapter on this is so substantial that I think I would counsel
      against anyone saying anything about 666 or Nero without having read
      this very carefully, and being able to offer some very thorough
      replies to the position Bauckham sets out!

      On 6 Dec 2007, at 05:24, neroad70 wrote:

      > Thanks Rob; I have just ordered the book! Does he discuss early
      > Christian belief that Nero was the beast? I guess what I am trying to
      > nail down, is whether the early Christians did indeed believe this.
      > Kistemaker in his commentary suggests that the idea that Nero was the
      > beast was a very recent notion.
      >
      > So in short, either there is documentation proving that the early
      > church or at least some in the church believed Nero to be the beast or
      > Kistemaker is right. Thats what I want to nail down.

      Ian
      ____________ _____
      Revd Dr Ian Paul
      Dean of Studies, St John's College, Bramcote, Nottm NG9 3DS
      w 0115 925 1114 x 254 h 0115 922 9699 m 07974
      351502
      http://www.stjohns- nottm.ac. uk
      Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge
      CB3 9HU
      01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
      http://www.groveboo ks.co.uk
      ____________ _____

      ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~
      Rev. Felix Just, S.J., Ph.D.
      Director of Biblical Education
      Loyola Institute for Spirituality
      480 S. Batavia St.
      Orange, CA 92868-3907
      office: 714-997-9587
      email: fjust@calprov. org
      http://catholic- resources. org
      ~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~


      Recent Activity

      2
      New Members

      Visit Your Group
      Yahoo! Kickstart
      Sign up today!
      Be a career mentor
      for undergrads.

      Y! Messenger
      PC-to-PC calls
      Call your friends
      worldwide - free!

      Yahoo! Groups
      Be a Better Planet
      Share with others
      Help the Planet.



      .





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Laszlo Hubbes
      Dear Dr. Ian R. Brown, I would full-heartedly suggest among many others Christopher Rowland s and Judith Kovacs s volume on Revelation in the Blackwell Bible
      Message 47 of 47 , Dec 10, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Dr. Ian R. Brown,

        I would full-heartedly suggest among many others

        Christopher Rowland's and Judith Kovacs's volume on Revelation in the
        Blackwell Bible Commentaries series. (Blackwell Publishing, 2004) - A
        brilliant multi-aspect and multi-level commentary on the Apocalypse, with an
        added emphasis on its reception history.

        Best regards,

        Hubbes Laszlo

        >


        --
        HUBBES L�szl�-Attila, PhD
        www.apokaliptikum.lap.hu

        librarian
        "BOD PETER" LIBRARY,
        Str. Gabor Aron ut 14,
        520008, Sfantu Gheorghe (Sepsiszentgyorgy),
        judetul Covasna.
        Tel.: + 40 (267) 315577
        Tel./Fax: + 40 (267) 351609
        e-mail: biblio@....

        visiting lecturer
        "SAPIENTIA" UNIVERSITY
        FACULTY OF BUSINESS
        AND HUMANITIES
        530104 Miercurea Ciuc (Csikszereda)
        Piata Libertatii (Szabadsag ter) 1
        Tel.: +40 266-314 657,
        Fax: +40 266�372 099
        E-mail: ghkar@...,
        Web: www.csik.sapientia.ro
        ROMANIA


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.