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Re: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

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  • George F Somsel
    Domitian s culpability in persecuting Christians (and in some cases others as well) has been called into question in recent scholarship. It seems that his
    Message 1 of 47 , Dec 6, 2007
      Domitian's culpability in persecuting Christians (and in some cases others as well) has been called into question in recent scholarship. It seems that his detractors largely include those who opposed him for other reasons (Senatorial prerogative). There seems to have been no empire-wide persecution of Christians at any time either under Nero (local persecution) or Domitian. We have evidence that some, such as Ignatius had been put to death including the letters between Pliny and Trajan, but no persecution in which Christians were specifically singled out. In fact, Trajan specifically forbids that Pliny act simply upon unsubstantiated rumors. I have serious doubts that the author of the Apocalypse had in view

      george
      gfsomsel

      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus
      _________



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 4:32:16 PM
      Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Nero

      With Hebrew gematria, the letter "nun" is worth 50 points, so "Nero Kaisar" = 616. As the second beast rising up out of the sea, however, the pressing affliction at the time of Revelation's finalization is likely Domitian, who is just as bad (if not worse) as Nero.

      Eugene Boring in his Interpretation commentary on Revelation has an excellent treatment of gematria, as do several others.

      Paul Anderson

      -----Original Message-----
      From: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of George F Somsel
      Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2007 1:03 PM
      To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: Re: [revelation- list] Re: Nero

      In order for 666 to be construed as referring to Nero it must be transliterated into Hebrew and read as "Neròn Kaisar." This is likely the reason that the reading 616 arose since it does not require such change. This apparently arose at an early date as is evidenced by P.Oxy. 4499.

      http://www.papyrolo gy.ox.ac. uk/POxy/beast/ beast616. html

      george
      gfsomsel

      Therefore, O faithful Christian, search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.

      - Jan Hus
      _________

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: "fjust2000@yahoo. com" <fjust2000@yahoo. com>
      To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2007 3:19:27 PM
      Subject: Re: [revelation- list] Re: Nero

      I haven't had a chance to read Bauckham yet on this, but does he also deal with the variant reading 616 ? Could someone summarize his position?

      And is there any consensus these days, at least among members of this group, about whether the text of Rev 13:18 originally read 616 or 666 ?

      I'm rather surprised that all of the recent postings on this forum have mentioned only 666, and no one (that I can recall) has discussed the implicatins for the question of dating if the original was actually 616.

      And could a change from 616 to 666 also be an indication that there may have been multiple editions of Rev, one of which might be earlier (ca. Nero), and one (or more) editions later?

      Felix

      Ian Paul <editor@grovebooks. co.uk> wrote:
      Yes, Bauckham does discuss the idea of Nero as beast quite
      extensively. But he relates it in particular to the myth of Nero
      redivivus as an eschatological rival to the return of Christ.

      The chapter on this is so substantial that I think I would counsel
      against anyone saying anything about 666 or Nero without having read
      this very carefully, and being able to offer some very thorough
      replies to the position Bauckham sets out!

      On 6 Dec 2007, at 05:24, neroad70 wrote:

      > Thanks Rob; I have just ordered the book! Does he discuss early
      > Christian belief that Nero was the beast? I guess what I am trying to
      > nail down, is whether the early Christians did indeed believe this.
      > Kistemaker in his commentary suggests that the idea that Nero was the
      > beast was a very recent notion.
      >
      > So in short, either there is documentation proving that the early
      > church or at least some in the church believed Nero to be the beast or
      > Kistemaker is right. Thats what I want to nail down.

      Ian
      ____________ _____
      Revd Dr Ian Paul
      Dean of Studies, St John's College, Bramcote, Nottm NG9 3DS
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    • Laszlo Hubbes
      Dear Dr. Ian R. Brown, I would full-heartedly suggest among many others Christopher Rowland s and Judith Kovacs s volume on Revelation in the Blackwell Bible
      Message 47 of 47 , Dec 10, 2007
        Dear Dr. Ian R. Brown,

        I would full-heartedly suggest among many others

        Christopher Rowland's and Judith Kovacs's volume on Revelation in the
        Blackwell Bible Commentaries series. (Blackwell Publishing, 2004) - A
        brilliant multi-aspect and multi-level commentary on the Apocalypse, with an
        added emphasis on its reception history.

        Best regards,

        Hubbes Laszlo

        >


        --
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        ROMANIA


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