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RE: [revelation-list] The Three Woes and evidence of adapted material

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  • Keith Starkey
    I see no reason to interpret Rev 9:13 ( Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels... )
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 3 3:34 PM
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      I see no reason to interpret Rev 9:13 ("Woe, woe, woe to the inhabitants of
      the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three
      angels...") to mean that each trumpet blast is confined to only one event or
      to the first event immediately mentioned after the blast. I think Rev 9:13
      is more flexible than that.

      Keith R. Starkey
    • Edmond Long
      I thought I d offer some possibilities with regard to your observation. If, as the text states, the three woes are the last three trumpets, then the sixth
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 4 9:58 AM
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        I thought I'd offer some possibilities with regard to your observation.

        If, as the text states, the three woes are the last three trumpets, then the sixth trumpet might include all the material from 9.13-11.14. The third woe would, of course, be the seventh trumpet. What must be decided is the extent of the material included in the sixth trumpet, and if the text, as we have it, has been altered from the original form (or, can we make a strong case for such a view).

        First, we have at least two choices with regard to the text. First, what we have is what was originally written. Two, what we have was shaped by an editor into the current form. To accept alternative two would require, it seems, some kind of textual evidence to prove our point. Otherwise, our argument would be from silence. Choice one appears to be the more logical option.

        Second, what next must be determined is the extent of the material covered by the last three trumpets. To arrive at such a conclusion, we might look at one option for understanding the judgment visions. Some see in the cycles either linear or chronological progression. I am not convinced that the seals, trumpets, or bowls are to be understood as series of sequential developments. The three courses of judgment might be interlaced, stacked on top of one another, or linked in some other way.

        Since the material in each case is visionary, looking for a logical sequence might miss the point altogether. Time might be a factor in an incidental way (the two witnesses lie in the street for three and a half days). Yet, time, as used in the visions, appears to be symbolical.

        So, the author may have intended all the material in 9.13-11.14 to be understood as a part of the sixth trumpet vision, even thought the material of chaps. 10-11 seem to interrupt the flow of the sixth vision.. Nonetheless, the second woe still might include all that material. Thus, the Parthian-type invaders, the angel and the little book, and the two witnesses would all be aspects of the second woe material.

        Further, if the third woe begins, as the author stated, with the sounding of the seventh trumpet, and if the seven bowls of wrath are subsumed by the seventh trumpet (in the manner that the seventh seal might subsume the seven trumpets), then the seven bowls are the third woe. If 12.12 is announcing a coming woe, then all that takes place in the bowls might be that third woe. Chapter 18.10, 16, 19, appears to suggest such a case.

        Some possibilities worth considering.

        Edmond Long

        George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
        In Re 8.14 there is an announcement that there are three woes to come. In 9.12 following the "locust" plague it is stated that the first woe is past. In 9.13-21 the incursion of Parthian-like hordes into the Empire is told (with the blowing of the Sixth Trumpet) yet this is not listed as one of the three woes. In 10.6 it is sworn that "there will be no more delay." The second woe is announced as completed in 11.14 following the resusitation of the two prophets, their assumption into heaven and the earthquake in the city. In 12.11 woe is pronounced upon the earth "for the devil has come down to you in great wrath." It would seem to me that the incursion of the Parthian-like hordes into the empire would have originally formed a second of the Three Woes but has been replaced by our author with the incident of the two prophets.



        george
        gfsomsel
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      • Jon Paulien
        I came to similar conclusions as Edmund about twenty years ago, but never publically stated them as clearly and succinctly as he does below. Jon Paulien
        Message 3 of 4 , Jul 4 4:01 PM
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          I came to similar conclusions as Edmund about twenty years ago, but never publically stated them as clearly and succinctly as he does below.

          Jon Paulien
          Andrews University

          -----Original Message-----
          From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Edmond Long
          Sent: Tuesday, July 04, 2006 12:58 PM
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] The Three Woes and evidence of adapted material

          I thought I'd offer some possibilities with regard to your observation.

          If, as the text states, the three woes are the last three trumpets, then the sixth trumpet might include all the material from 9.13-11.14. The third woe would, of course, be the seventh trumpet. What must be decided is the extent of the material included in the sixth trumpet, and if the text, as we have it, has been altered from the original form (or, can we make a strong case for such a view).

          First, we have at least two choices with regard to the text. First, what we have is what was originally written. Two, what we have was shaped by an editor into the current form. To accept alternative two would require, it seems, some kind of textual evidence to prove our point. Otherwise, our argument would be from silence. Choice one appears to be the more logical option.

          Second, what next must be determined is the extent of the material covered by the last three trumpets. To arrive at such a conclusion, we might look at one option for understanding the judgment visions. Some see in the cycles either linear or chronological progression. I am not convinced that the seals, trumpets, or bowls are to be understood as series of sequential developments. The three courses of judgment might be interlaced, stacked on top of one another, or linked in some other way.

          Since the material in each case is visionary, looking for a logical sequence might miss the point altogether. Time might be a factor in an incidental way (the two witnesses lie in the street for three and a half days). Yet, time, as used in the visions, appears to be symbolical.

          So, the author may have intended all the material in 9.13-11.14 to be understood as a part of the sixth trumpet vision, even thought the material of chaps. 10-11 seem to interrupt the flow of the sixth vision.. Nonetheless, the second woe still might include all that material. Thus, the Parthian-type invaders, the angel and the little book, and the two witnesses would all be aspects of the second woe material.

          Further, if the third woe begins, as the author stated, with the sounding of the seventh trumpet, and if the seven bowls of wrath are subsumed by the seventh trumpet (in the manner that the seventh seal might subsume the seven trumpets), then the seven bowls are the third woe. If 12.12 is announcing a coming woe, then all that takes place in the bowls might be that third woe. Chapter 18.10, 16, 19, appears to suggest such a case.

          Some possibilities worth considering.

          Edmond Long

          George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
          In Re 8.14 there is an announcement that there are three woes to come. In 9.12 following the "locust" plague it is stated that the first woe is past. In 9.13-21 the incursion of Parthian-like hordes into the Empire is told (with the blowing of the Sixth Trumpet) yet this is not listed as one of the three woes. In 10.6 it is sworn that "there will be no more delay." The second woe is announced as completed in 11.14 following the resusitation of the two prophets, their assumption into heaven and the earthquake in the city. In 12.11 woe is pronounced upon the earth "for the devil has come down to you in great wrath." It would seem to me that the incursion of the Parthian-like hordes into the empire would have originally formed a second of the Three Woes but has been replaced by our author with the incident of the two prophets.



          george
          gfsomsel
          _________

          ---------------------------------
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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          Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.

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