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  • Dave Mathewson
    In response to Ed Garcia s question: Is there value in finding a reference to Nero? Given the character of a figure like Nero, could not Nero serve as a
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
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      In response to Ed Garcia's question:

      Is there value in finding a reference to Nero?
      Given the character of a figure like Nero, could not Nero serve as a
      paradigm of or model for a future eschatological adversary, whether in
      John's day or our own? Thus, the figure of Nero could have provided a
      powerful metaphorical image from the past (evoking fear) for perceiving
      Roman ideology in the present and for depicting the ultimate adversary in
      John's 'eschatological surplus'.

      DAVE

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    • Ed Garcia
      Kym, Thank you for your response. I think one main point of difference between us is that you accept a date of 62 for Revelation, I go with the mid to late
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
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        Kym,

        Thank you for your response. I think one main point of difference between us
        is that
        you accept a date of 62 for Revelation, I go with the mid to late 90s.

        You make a good point when you say:
        "I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also has to do with
        time."
        This makes sense to me.

        Thanks again,
        Ed Garcia



        -----Original Message-----
        From: ksmith@... [mailto:ksmith@...]
        Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:36 PM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Question



        Dear Ed,

        <<<If we say, as so many do, that the beast with the seven
        heads is Nero then what would be the significance? Of what
        value is such a conclusion? This has long puzzled me. I do not
        see that Nero as a solution would have had any real value to first
        century readers or to readers of any other era for that matter. >>>

        If the Revelation was for a single age only and if it was given
        following Nero's death - or, perhaps, even during the
        persecutions - it would be, as you say, of little or no value in
        identifying that emperor with the Beast.

        If, however, the Revelation was given before the Persecutions
        began (assuming it was a vision given to John rather than an
        apocalyptic construction of his own), then to know the specific
        king through whom they were to suffer enabled the Church to act
        with increased wisdom at that time. It also confirmed that,
        despite the hardships they were to endure, God was very much
        in control. Considering that those who first received the
        Revelation (e.g. the apostles) would have believed that Christ
        was about to return, it would have made enduring the sufferings
        a little less difficult. I hold that the Revelation was given in 62,
        over two years before the outbreak of Nero's persecutions and
        so allowing a reasonable period for the Church to prepare itself.
        If the Revelation was not given at a time when it could receive
        apostolic witness and acceptance, we would treat it like most
        probably do the writings of Nostra Damus.

        Again, if the Revelation was multilayered - or at least dual
        layered - in its fulfillment, then the Beast it is identifying, i.e. the
        Beast who will precede the parousia, is yet to come. In the
        immediate context of its giving, Nero was the beast who would
        oppose the Church, but the details God gave in that context may
        well identify the Beast who is yet to come, one who will only be
        recognized by that generation which will have to face him. This
        does not mean that the Revelation has no significance for the
        period between the first and the last beast, but it must have a
        particular value for those who have had to or will have to face
        either of them. You accept a multilayered understanding of some
        terms, I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also
        has to do with time.

        <<< Though I suppose I should also ask, by Nero do some
        understand a literal
        Nero back from the dead? Or an evil Nero like character? >>>

        Again, this is not an issue if the Revelation was given before
        Nero's persecutions. Nero was the Beast of that time. I think "an
        evil Nero-like character", only far worse and truly global in his
        influence, is yet to be unveiled.

        Sincerely,

        Kym Smith
        Adelaide
        South Australia
        khs@...





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      • Ed Garcia
        I agree with you in as far as Nero is as good a metaphorical image as any other cruel ruler we could name--Hitler or Stalin for instance. I recall when Nicolae
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
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          I agree with you in as far as Nero is as good a metaphorical image as any
          other cruel ruler we could name--Hitler or Stalin for instance. I recall
          when Nicolae Ceausescu was ousted as ruler in Romania, some years back.
          People in Romania were cheering, a woman on the street was asked by a TV
          reporter, "Why are you celebrating?" The woman answered, "Haven't you heard?
          We defeated the anti-christ?"

          Personally, I do not believe that Revelation's description of the beast
          needs any help from Nero in order to invoke feelings of dread or horror.

          Thanks for commenting.

          Sincerely,
          Ed Garcia

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Dave Mathewson [mailto:d_mathewson@...]
          Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 8:58 AM
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [revelation-list] Question


          In response to Ed Garcia's question:

          Is there value in finding a reference to Nero?
          Given the character of a figure like Nero, could not Nero serve as a
          paradigm of or model for a future eschatological adversary, whether in
          John's day or our own? Thus, the figure of Nero could have provided a
          powerful metaphorical image from the past (evoking fear) for perceiving
          Roman ideology in the present and for depicting the ultimate adversary in
          John's 'eschatological surplus'.

          DAVE

          _________________________________________________________________
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