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Rev 14:12 ("pistin Iesou")

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  • ottoerlend
    Hello, Usually pistin Iesou in Rev 14:12 is translated as faith in Jesus (NET, NAB) or faith of Jesus (NRSV) . I guess it s possible to understand the
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 11, 2005
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      Hello,

      Usually "pistin Iesou" in Rev 14:12 is translated as "faith in Jesus"
      (NET, NAB) or "faith of Jesus" (NRSV) . I guess it's possible to
      understand the genitive as both subjective and objective; I am not
      able to see that the context favours either of them. I have also seen a
      translation like "faithful to Jesus" (cannot remenber where).

      Now, I was wondering if the following translation might be possible /
      likely: "faithfulness of Jesus". ("Faithfulness" does seem to be within
      the semantic realm of "pistis".)

      What do you think? All kinds of comments (context, semantics, syntax,
      etc.) might be useful!


      Best wishes

      Otto E. Nordgreen
    • Christian Maymann
      Dear Otto Nordgreen The Greek text runs hoi têrountes tas entolas tou theou kai pistin Iesou In 13:10 the referent for pistis most likely is the faith of the
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 11, 2005
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        Dear Otto Nordgreen

        The Greek text runs hoi têrountes tas entolas tou theou kai pistin Iesou


        In 13:10 the referent for pistis most likely is the faith of the holy one.
        I think that we compare 13:10 and 14:12 for several reasons:
        i) They belong together, as part of the "Sign" running from 12:1 to 14:20
        ii) They have two themes in common the pistis and the hypomonê.

        Therefore pistis Iêsou most likely referees to something that describe the
        Christians, not Jesus himself, and therefore Iesou is (as I see it) an
        objective genitive.

        As You know, there have been an For several years debate about exactly that
        problem in the letters of Paul. For some general semantic consideration You
        can read the article "Faith Versus Works of Law in Galatians" in Carson et
        al. Justification and Variegated Nomism Vol 2, Mohr Siebeck 2004


        Christian Maymann
        M.Theol.
        Copenhagen

        -----Original Message-----
        From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ottoerlend
        Sent: 11. november 2005 20:07
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] Rev 14:12 ("pistin Iesou")

        Hello,

        Usually "pistin Iesou" in Rev 14:12 is translated as "faith in Jesus"
        (NET, NAB) or "faith of Jesus" (NRSV) . I guess it's possible to understand
        the genitive as both subjective and objective; I am not able to see that the
        context favours either of them. I have also seen a translation like
        "faithful to Jesus" (cannot remenber where).

        Now, I was wondering if the following translation might be possible /
        likely: "faithfulness of Jesus". ("Faithfulness" does seem to be within the
        semantic realm of "pistis".)

        What do you think? All kinds of comments (context, semantics, syntax,
        etc.) might be useful!


        Best wishes

        Otto E. Nordgreen





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      • Bob MacDonald
        George writes: proleptically as having suffered Ken references a suspicion of a link to John 5:24 George - thanks for the note. I think your explanation is not
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
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          George writes: proleptically as having suffered
          Ken references a suspicion of a link to John 5:24

          George - thanks for the note. I think your explanation is
          not far off from supporting my thesis that the implied first
          death in Rev is like Paul's image of baptism in Romans, a
          real identification with the suffering and death of the
          firstborn and an overcoming through this death. Thank you
          for the interpretation of the 1000 years - nice work and
          good idea - one day in thy courts is better than a thousand
          also comes to mind as an indication of the notion of
          'eternal' - a subject that has been debated at least since
          Aquinas

          Ken - re John 5:24-29; these verses are part of a double
          chiasm with the centre of each focussing on opposites -
          believing and non believing. Given the complex concentric
          structures in Revelation, it is possible that the same poet
          wrote both - but hardly necessary. (For the double chiasm
          see http://bmd.gx.ca/synoptic/tuej_only_viii.htm#141

          I have no axe to grind on this - but sometimes I wonder if
          the reputed young man in the rich young man story (only in
          Mark) might not have been the poet of G John (but not John
          of Patmos) - too many inferences to resolve...

          Bob

          Bob MacDonald
          http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
          Victoria, B.C., Canada

          Catch the foxes for us,
          the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
          for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
        • KennethGentry@cs.com
          In a message dated 11/12/2005 8:39:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Bob: I do not used the seeming relationship between Rev 20 and John 5 as evidence for
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
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            In a message dated 11/12/2005 8:39:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
            bobmacdonald@... writes:


            > Ken - re John 5:24-29; these verses are part of a double
            > chiasm with the centre of each focussing on opposites -
            > believing and non believing. Given the complex concentric
            > structures in Revelation, it is possible that the same poet
            > wrote both - but hardly necessary.

            Bob:

            I do not used the seeming relationship between Rev 20 and John 5 as evidence
            for Johannine authorship of Rev. 20. I already have in mind (from other
            evidence) that John is the author of both the Gospel and the Revelation. Having that
            in mind, I see a double resurrection in John 5 and suppose that since (on
            other grounds) John wrote Rev 20, that he would be picking up on his already
            established two resurrection motif.

            I see Rev 11:2 as reflecting Luke 21:24 also. But I (obviously) wouldn't say
            this is evidence Luke wrote Revelation.

            I am afraid I may have made you think I was using the Rev 20 / John 5
            similarity as evidence of authorship. That was a mistaken impression that I didn't
            intend.

            Thanks,

            Ken

            Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., M.Div, Th.M., Th.D
            www.KennethGentry.com
            "Serious Studies for Serious Christians"

            Chancellor and Research Professor in Theology
            Christ College, Lynchburg, Virginia
            www.Christ-College.edu


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