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Re: Question

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  • ksmith@standrews.sa.edu.au
    Dear Ed,
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 6, 2001
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      Dear Ed,

      <<<If we say, as so many do, that the beast with the seven
      heads is Nero then what would be the significance? Of what
      value is such a conclusion? This has long puzzled me. I do not
      see that Nero as a solution would have had any real value to first
      century readers or to readers of any other era for that matter. >>>

      If the Revelation was for a single age only and if it was given
      following Nero's death – or, perhaps, even during the
      persecutions – it would be, as you say, of little or no value in
      identifying that emperor with the Beast.

      If, however, the Revelation was given before the Persecutions
      began (assuming it was a vision given to John rather than an
      apocalyptic construction of his own), then to know the specific
      king through whom they were to suffer enabled the Church to act
      with increased wisdom at that time. It also confirmed that,
      despite the hardships they were to endure, God was very much
      in control. Considering that those who first received the
      Revelation (e.g. the apostles) would have believed that Christ
      was about to return, it would have made enduring the sufferings
      a little less difficult. I hold that the Revelation was given in 62,
      over two years before the outbreak of Nero's persecutions and
      so allowing a reasonable period for the Church to prepare itself.
      If the Revelation was not given at a time when it could receive
      apostolic witness and acceptance, we would treat it like most
      probably do the writings of Nostra Damus.

      Again, if the Revelation was multilayered – or at least dual
      layered – in its fulfillment, then the Beast it is identifying, i.e. the
      Beast who will precede the parousia, is yet to come. In the
      immediate context of its giving, Nero was the beast who would
      oppose the Church, but the details God gave in that context may
      well identify the Beast who is yet to come, one who will only be
      recognized by that generation which will have to face him. This
      does not mean that the Revelation has no significance for the
      period between the first and the last beast, but it must have a
      particular value for those who have had to or will have to face
      either of them. You accept a multilayered understanding of some
      terms, I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also
      has to do with time.

      <<< Though I suppose I should also ask, by Nero do some
      understand a literal
      Nero back from the dead? Or an evil Nero like character? >>>

      Again, this is not an issue if the Revelation was given before
      Nero's persecutions. Nero was the Beast of that time. I think "an
      evil Nero-like character", only far worse and truly global in his
      influence, is yet to be unveiled.

      Sincerely,

      Kym Smith
      Adelaide
      South Australia
      khs@...
    • RSBrenchley@aol.com
      ... There are Nero-like characters in every age; I actually knew one, now thankfully dead. His name was Solomon AJ (SAJ) Musa, he was responsible for a fair
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
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        Kym writes:

        > Again, if the Revelation was multilayered – or at least dual
        > layered – in its fulfillment, then the Beast it is identifying, i.e. the
        > Beast who will precede the parousia, is yet to come. In the
        > immediate context of its giving, Nero was the beast who would
        > oppose the Church, but the details God gave in that context may
        > well identify the Beast who is yet to come, one who will only be
        > recognized by that generation which will have to face him. This
        > does not mean that the Revelation has no significance for the
        > period between the first and the last beast, but it must have a
        > particular value for those who have had to or will have to face
        > either of them. You accept a multilayered understanding of some
        > terms, I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also
        > has to do with time.

        There are Nero-like characters in every age; I actually knew one, now
        thankfully dead. His name was Solomon AJ (SAJ) Musa, he was responsible for a
        fair proportion of the fighting in Sierra Leone, as the motivating force
        behind two juntas, and, at one time, effective leader of one of the rebel
        factions (he never officially got the top job, thank God - at one point it's
        alleged that he planned to slaughter the entire political and military elite
        of the country). Whoever the author of Revelation had in mind, I tend to see
        it symbolically, as pointing to the demonic manifestations of government
        which occur so horribly often, and to their ultimate defeat.

        Regards,

        Robert Brenchley,
        Birmingham, UK.

        RSBrenchley@...
      • Dave Mathewson
        In response to Ed Garcia s question: Is there value in finding a reference to Nero? Given the character of a figure like Nero, could not Nero serve as a
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
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          In response to Ed Garcia's question:

          Is there value in finding a reference to Nero?
          Given the character of a figure like Nero, could not Nero serve as a
          paradigm of or model for a future eschatological adversary, whether in
          John's day or our own? Thus, the figure of Nero could have provided a
          powerful metaphorical image from the past (evoking fear) for perceiving
          Roman ideology in the present and for depicting the ultimate adversary in
          John's 'eschatological surplus'.

          DAVE

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        • Ed Garcia
          Kym, Thank you for your response. I think one main point of difference between us is that you accept a date of 62 for Revelation, I go with the mid to late
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
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            Kym,

            Thank you for your response. I think one main point of difference between us
            is that
            you accept a date of 62 for Revelation, I go with the mid to late 90s.

            You make a good point when you say:
            "I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also has to do with
            time."
            This makes sense to me.

            Thanks again,
            Ed Garcia



            -----Original Message-----
            From: ksmith@... [mailto:ksmith@...]
            Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:36 PM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Question



            Dear Ed,

            <<<If we say, as so many do, that the beast with the seven
            heads is Nero then what would be the significance? Of what
            value is such a conclusion? This has long puzzled me. I do not
            see that Nero as a solution would have had any real value to first
            century readers or to readers of any other era for that matter. >>>

            If the Revelation was for a single age only and if it was given
            following Nero's death - or, perhaps, even during the
            persecutions - it would be, as you say, of little or no value in
            identifying that emperor with the Beast.

            If, however, the Revelation was given before the Persecutions
            began (assuming it was a vision given to John rather than an
            apocalyptic construction of his own), then to know the specific
            king through whom they were to suffer enabled the Church to act
            with increased wisdom at that time. It also confirmed that,
            despite the hardships they were to endure, God was very much
            in control. Considering that those who first received the
            Revelation (e.g. the apostles) would have believed that Christ
            was about to return, it would have made enduring the sufferings
            a little less difficult. I hold that the Revelation was given in 62,
            over two years before the outbreak of Nero's persecutions and
            so allowing a reasonable period for the Church to prepare itself.
            If the Revelation was not given at a time when it could receive
            apostolic witness and acceptance, we would treat it like most
            probably do the writings of Nostra Damus.

            Again, if the Revelation was multilayered - or at least dual
            layered - in its fulfillment, then the Beast it is identifying, i.e. the
            Beast who will precede the parousia, is yet to come. In the
            immediate context of its giving, Nero was the beast who would
            oppose the Church, but the details God gave in that context may
            well identify the Beast who is yet to come, one who will only be
            recognized by that generation which will have to face him. This
            does not mean that the Revelation has no significance for the
            period between the first and the last beast, but it must have a
            particular value for those who have had to or will have to face
            either of them. You accept a multilayered understanding of some
            terms, I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also
            has to do with time.

            <<< Though I suppose I should also ask, by Nero do some
            understand a literal
            Nero back from the dead? Or an evil Nero like character? >>>

            Again, this is not an issue if the Revelation was given before
            Nero's persecutions. Nero was the Beast of that time. I think "an
            evil Nero-like character", only far worse and truly global in his
            influence, is yet to be unveiled.

            Sincerely,

            Kym Smith
            Adelaide
            South Australia
            khs@...





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          • Ed Garcia
            I agree with you in as far as Nero is as good a metaphorical image as any other cruel ruler we could name--Hitler or Stalin for instance. I recall when Nicolae
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
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              I agree with you in as far as Nero is as good a metaphorical image as any
              other cruel ruler we could name--Hitler or Stalin for instance. I recall
              when Nicolae Ceausescu was ousted as ruler in Romania, some years back.
              People in Romania were cheering, a woman on the street was asked by a TV
              reporter, "Why are you celebrating?" The woman answered, "Haven't you heard?
              We defeated the anti-christ?"

              Personally, I do not believe that Revelation's description of the beast
              needs any help from Nero in order to invoke feelings of dread or horror.

              Thanks for commenting.

              Sincerely,
              Ed Garcia

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Dave Mathewson [mailto:d_mathewson@...]
              Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 8:58 AM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [revelation-list] Question


              In response to Ed Garcia's question:

              Is there value in finding a reference to Nero?
              Given the character of a figure like Nero, could not Nero serve as a
              paradigm of or model for a future eschatological adversary, whether in
              John's day or our own? Thus, the figure of Nero could have provided a
              powerful metaphorical image from the past (evoking fear) for perceiving
              Roman ideology in the present and for depicting the ultimate adversary in
              John's 'eschatological surplus'.

              DAVE

              _________________________________________________________________
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