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Re: [revelation-list] Second death

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  • dtrini
    The Fall. West Band and Gaza threat: After Shabbat comes Sunday Helen http://caribpundit.com
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 11, 2005
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      The Fall.

      West Band and Gaza threat: "After Shabbat comes Sunday"

      Helen

      http://caribpundit.com



      On Nov 11, 2005, at 2:37 AM, MORIAH wrote:

      > shhhhh. You will awaken a monster!
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Bob MacDonald
      > Sent: 11 November 2005 09:19 AM
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Second death
      >
      >
      >
      > quiet list,
      >
      > what precedent is there for the phrase second death?
      >
      > to the author of Revelation, what death is first?
      >
      > thanks
      >
      > Bob
      >
      > Bob MacDonald
      > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
      > Victoria, B.C., Canada
      >
      > Catch the foxes for us,
      > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
      > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • ottoerlend
      Hello, Usually pistin Iesou in Rev 14:12 is translated as faith in Jesus (NET, NAB) or faith of Jesus (NRSV) . I guess it s possible to understand the
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 11, 2005
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        Hello,

        Usually "pistin Iesou" in Rev 14:12 is translated as "faith in Jesus"
        (NET, NAB) or "faith of Jesus" (NRSV) . I guess it's possible to
        understand the genitive as both subjective and objective; I am not
        able to see that the context favours either of them. I have also seen a
        translation like "faithful to Jesus" (cannot remenber where).

        Now, I was wondering if the following translation might be possible /
        likely: "faithfulness of Jesus". ("Faithfulness" does seem to be within
        the semantic realm of "pistis".)

        What do you think? All kinds of comments (context, semantics, syntax,
        etc.) might be useful!


        Best wishes

        Otto E. Nordgreen
      • Christian Maymann
        Dear Otto Nordgreen The Greek text runs hoi têrountes tas entolas tou theou kai pistin Iesou In 13:10 the referent for pistis most likely is the faith of the
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 11, 2005
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          Dear Otto Nordgreen

          The Greek text runs hoi têrountes tas entolas tou theou kai pistin Iesou


          In 13:10 the referent for pistis most likely is the faith of the holy one.
          I think that we compare 13:10 and 14:12 for several reasons:
          i) They belong together, as part of the "Sign" running from 12:1 to 14:20
          ii) They have two themes in common the pistis and the hypomonê.

          Therefore pistis Iêsou most likely referees to something that describe the
          Christians, not Jesus himself, and therefore Iesou is (as I see it) an
          objective genitive.

          As You know, there have been an For several years debate about exactly that
          problem in the letters of Paul. For some general semantic consideration You
          can read the article "Faith Versus Works of Law in Galatians" in Carson et
          al. Justification and Variegated Nomism Vol 2, Mohr Siebeck 2004


          Christian Maymann
          M.Theol.
          Copenhagen

          -----Original Message-----
          From: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ottoerlend
          Sent: 11. november 2005 20:07
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [revelation-list] Rev 14:12 ("pistin Iesou")

          Hello,

          Usually "pistin Iesou" in Rev 14:12 is translated as "faith in Jesus"
          (NET, NAB) or "faith of Jesus" (NRSV) . I guess it's possible to understand
          the genitive as both subjective and objective; I am not able to see that the
          context favours either of them. I have also seen a translation like
          "faithful to Jesus" (cannot remenber where).

          Now, I was wondering if the following translation might be possible /
          likely: "faithfulness of Jesus". ("Faithfulness" does seem to be within the
          semantic realm of "pistis".)

          What do you think? All kinds of comments (context, semantics, syntax,
          etc.) might be useful!


          Best wishes

          Otto E. Nordgreen





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        • Bob MacDonald
          George writes: proleptically as having suffered Ken references a suspicion of a link to John 5:24 George - thanks for the note. I think your explanation is not
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
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            George writes: proleptically as having suffered
            Ken references a suspicion of a link to John 5:24

            George - thanks for the note. I think your explanation is
            not far off from supporting my thesis that the implied first
            death in Rev is like Paul's image of baptism in Romans, a
            real identification with the suffering and death of the
            firstborn and an overcoming through this death. Thank you
            for the interpretation of the 1000 years - nice work and
            good idea - one day in thy courts is better than a thousand
            also comes to mind as an indication of the notion of
            'eternal' - a subject that has been debated at least since
            Aquinas

            Ken - re John 5:24-29; these verses are part of a double
            chiasm with the centre of each focussing on opposites -
            believing and non believing. Given the complex concentric
            structures in Revelation, it is possible that the same poet
            wrote both - but hardly necessary. (For the double chiasm
            see http://bmd.gx.ca/synoptic/tuej_only_viii.htm#141

            I have no axe to grind on this - but sometimes I wonder if
            the reputed young man in the rich young man story (only in
            Mark) might not have been the poet of G John (but not John
            of Patmos) - too many inferences to resolve...

            Bob

            Bob MacDonald
            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
            Victoria, B.C., Canada

            Catch the foxes for us,
            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
          • KennethGentry@cs.com
            In a message dated 11/12/2005 8:39:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Bob: I do not used the seeming relationship between Rev 20 and John 5 as evidence for
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
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              In a message dated 11/12/2005 8:39:32 PM Eastern Standard Time,
              bobmacdonald@... writes:


              > Ken - re John 5:24-29; these verses are part of a double
              > chiasm with the centre of each focussing on opposites -
              > believing and non believing. Given the complex concentric
              > structures in Revelation, it is possible that the same poet
              > wrote both - but hardly necessary.

              Bob:

              I do not used the seeming relationship between Rev 20 and John 5 as evidence
              for Johannine authorship of Rev. 20. I already have in mind (from other
              evidence) that John is the author of both the Gospel and the Revelation. Having that
              in mind, I see a double resurrection in John 5 and suppose that since (on
              other grounds) John wrote Rev 20, that he would be picking up on his already
              established two resurrection motif.

              I see Rev 11:2 as reflecting Luke 21:24 also. But I (obviously) wouldn't say
              this is evidence Luke wrote Revelation.

              I am afraid I may have made you think I was using the Rev 20 / John 5
              similarity as evidence of authorship. That was a mistaken impression that I didn't
              intend.

              Thanks,

              Ken

              Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., M.Div, Th.M., Th.D
              www.KennethGentry.com
              "Serious Studies for Serious Christians"

              Chancellor and Research Professor in Theology
              Christ College, Lynchburg, Virginia
              www.Christ-College.edu


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