Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Question

Expand Messages
  • Ed Garcia
    Greetings! I am curious and am still intrigued by something. If we say, as so many do, that the beast with the seven heads is Nero then what would be the
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 6, 2001
      Greetings!

      I am curious and am still intrigued by something. If we say, as so many do,
      that the beast with the seven heads is Nero then what would be the
      significance? Of what value is such a conclusion? This has long puzzled me.
      I do not see that Nero as a solution would have had any real value to first
      century readers or to readers of any other era for that matter.

      Though I suppose I should also ask, by Nero do some understand a literal
      Nero back from the dead? Or an evil Nero like character?

      Yes, I do realize that in Revelation we are dealing with symbols and while a
      star may simply be a star it can also have several other layers of meaning.
      But still, even with that in mind I do not see the significance or
      usefulness of identifying Nero as the seven headed beast. Of what use is
      this conclusion?

      Respectfully,
      Ed Garcia
    • ksmith@standrews.sa.edu.au
      Dear Ed,
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 6, 2001
        Dear Ed,

        <<<If we say, as so many do, that the beast with the seven
        heads is Nero then what would be the significance? Of what
        value is such a conclusion? This has long puzzled me. I do not
        see that Nero as a solution would have had any real value to first
        century readers or to readers of any other era for that matter. >>>

        If the Revelation was for a single age only and if it was given
        following Nero's death – or, perhaps, even during the
        persecutions – it would be, as you say, of little or no value in
        identifying that emperor with the Beast.

        If, however, the Revelation was given before the Persecutions
        began (assuming it was a vision given to John rather than an
        apocalyptic construction of his own), then to know the specific
        king through whom they were to suffer enabled the Church to act
        with increased wisdom at that time. It also confirmed that,
        despite the hardships they were to endure, God was very much
        in control. Considering that those who first received the
        Revelation (e.g. the apostles) would have believed that Christ
        was about to return, it would have made enduring the sufferings
        a little less difficult. I hold that the Revelation was given in 62,
        over two years before the outbreak of Nero's persecutions and
        so allowing a reasonable period for the Church to prepare itself.
        If the Revelation was not given at a time when it could receive
        apostolic witness and acceptance, we would treat it like most
        probably do the writings of Nostra Damus.

        Again, if the Revelation was multilayered – or at least dual
        layered – in its fulfillment, then the Beast it is identifying, i.e. the
        Beast who will precede the parousia, is yet to come. In the
        immediate context of its giving, Nero was the beast who would
        oppose the Church, but the details God gave in that context may
        well identify the Beast who is yet to come, one who will only be
        recognized by that generation which will have to face him. This
        does not mean that the Revelation has no significance for the
        period between the first and the last beast, but it must have a
        particular value for those who have had to or will have to face
        either of them. You accept a multilayered understanding of some
        terms, I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also
        has to do with time.

        <<< Though I suppose I should also ask, by Nero do some
        understand a literal
        Nero back from the dead? Or an evil Nero like character? >>>

        Again, this is not an issue if the Revelation was given before
        Nero's persecutions. Nero was the Beast of that time. I think "an
        evil Nero-like character", only far worse and truly global in his
        influence, is yet to be unveiled.

        Sincerely,

        Kym Smith
        Adelaide
        South Australia
        khs@...
      • RSBrenchley@aol.com
        ... There are Nero-like characters in every age; I actually knew one, now thankfully dead. His name was Solomon AJ (SAJ) Musa, he was responsible for a fair
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
          Kym writes:

          > Again, if the Revelation was multilayered – or at least dual
          > layered – in its fulfillment, then the Beast it is identifying, i.e. the
          > Beast who will precede the parousia, is yet to come. In the
          > immediate context of its giving, Nero was the beast who would
          > oppose the Church, but the details God gave in that context may
          > well identify the Beast who is yet to come, one who will only be
          > recognized by that generation which will have to face him. This
          > does not mean that the Revelation has no significance for the
          > period between the first and the last beast, but it must have a
          > particular value for those who have had to or will have to face
          > either of them. You accept a multilayered understanding of some
          > terms, I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also
          > has to do with time.

          There are Nero-like characters in every age; I actually knew one, now
          thankfully dead. His name was Solomon AJ (SAJ) Musa, he was responsible for a
          fair proportion of the fighting in Sierra Leone, as the motivating force
          behind two juntas, and, at one time, effective leader of one of the rebel
          factions (he never officially got the top job, thank God - at one point it's
          alleged that he planned to slaughter the entire political and military elite
          of the country). Whoever the author of Revelation had in mind, I tend to see
          it symbolically, as pointing to the demonic manifestations of government
          which occur so horribly often, and to their ultimate defeat.

          Regards,

          Robert Brenchley,
          Birmingham, UK.

          RSBrenchley@...
        • Dave Mathewson
          In response to Ed Garcia s question: Is there value in finding a reference to Nero? Given the character of a figure like Nero, could not Nero serve as a
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
            In response to Ed Garcia's question:

            Is there value in finding a reference to Nero?
            Given the character of a figure like Nero, could not Nero serve as a
            paradigm of or model for a future eschatological adversary, whether in
            John's day or our own? Thus, the figure of Nero could have provided a
            powerful metaphorical image from the past (evoking fear) for perceiving
            Roman ideology in the present and for depicting the ultimate adversary in
            John's 'eschatological surplus'.

            DAVE

            _________________________________________________________________
            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
          • Ed Garcia
            Kym, Thank you for your response. I think one main point of difference between us is that you accept a date of 62 for Revelation, I go with the mid to late
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
              Kym,

              Thank you for your response. I think one main point of difference between us
              is that
              you accept a date of 62 for Revelation, I go with the mid to late 90s.

              You make a good point when you say:
              "I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also has to do with
              time."
              This makes sense to me.

              Thanks again,
              Ed Garcia



              -----Original Message-----
              From: ksmith@... [mailto:ksmith@...]
              Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 6:36 PM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Question



              Dear Ed,

              <<<If we say, as so many do, that the beast with the seven
              heads is Nero then what would be the significance? Of what
              value is such a conclusion? This has long puzzled me. I do not
              see that Nero as a solution would have had any real value to first
              century readers or to readers of any other era for that matter. >>>

              If the Revelation was for a single age only and if it was given
              following Nero's death - or, perhaps, even during the
              persecutions - it would be, as you say, of little or no value in
              identifying that emperor with the Beast.

              If, however, the Revelation was given before the Persecutions
              began (assuming it was a vision given to John rather than an
              apocalyptic construction of his own), then to know the specific
              king through whom they were to suffer enabled the Church to act
              with increased wisdom at that time. It also confirmed that,
              despite the hardships they were to endure, God was very much
              in control. Considering that those who first received the
              Revelation (e.g. the apostles) would have believed that Christ
              was about to return, it would have made enduring the sufferings
              a little less difficult. I hold that the Revelation was given in 62,
              over two years before the outbreak of Nero's persecutions and
              so allowing a reasonable period for the Church to prepare itself.
              If the Revelation was not given at a time when it could receive
              apostolic witness and acceptance, we would treat it like most
              probably do the writings of Nostra Damus.

              Again, if the Revelation was multilayered - or at least dual
              layered - in its fulfillment, then the Beast it is identifying, i.e. the
              Beast who will precede the parousia, is yet to come. In the
              immediate context of its giving, Nero was the beast who would
              oppose the Church, but the details God gave in that context may
              well identify the Beast who is yet to come, one who will only be
              recognized by that generation which will have to face him. This
              does not mean that the Revelation has no significance for the
              period between the first and the last beast, but it must have a
              particular value for those who have had to or will have to face
              either of them. You accept a multilayered understanding of some
              terms, I am simply suggesting that that multilayered aspect also
              has to do with time.

              <<< Though I suppose I should also ask, by Nero do some
              understand a literal
              Nero back from the dead? Or an evil Nero like character? >>>

              Again, this is not an issue if the Revelation was given before
              Nero's persecutions. Nero was the Beast of that time. I think "an
              evil Nero-like character", only far worse and truly global in his
              influence, is yet to be unveiled.

              Sincerely,

              Kym Smith
              Adelaide
              South Australia
              khs@...





              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Ed Garcia
              I agree with you in as far as Nero is as good a metaphorical image as any other cruel ruler we could name--Hitler or Stalin for instance. I recall when Nicolae
              Message 6 of 6 , Sep 7, 2001
                I agree with you in as far as Nero is as good a metaphorical image as any
                other cruel ruler we could name--Hitler or Stalin for instance. I recall
                when Nicolae Ceausescu was ousted as ruler in Romania, some years back.
                People in Romania were cheering, a woman on the street was asked by a TV
                reporter, "Why are you celebrating?" The woman answered, "Haven't you heard?
                We defeated the anti-christ?"

                Personally, I do not believe that Revelation's description of the beast
                needs any help from Nero in order to invoke feelings of dread or horror.

                Thanks for commenting.

                Sincerely,
                Ed Garcia

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dave Mathewson [mailto:d_mathewson@...]
                Sent: Friday, September 07, 2001 8:58 AM
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [revelation-list] Question


                In response to Ed Garcia's question:

                Is there value in finding a reference to Nero?
                Given the character of a figure like Nero, could not Nero serve as a
                paradigm of or model for a future eschatological adversary, whether in
                John's day or our own? Thus, the figure of Nero could have provided a
                powerful metaphorical image from the past (evoking fear) for perceiving
                Roman ideology in the present and for depicting the ultimate adversary in
                John's 'eschatological surplus'.

                DAVE

                _________________________________________________________________
                Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.