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Re 16.15 a gloss?

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  • polycarp66@aol.com
    It is well-known that certain scholars such as R. H. Charles went overboard in finding redactions and glosses on every high hill and under every green tree ,
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 18 1:04 AM
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      It is well-known that certain scholars such as R. H. Charles went overboard in finding redactions and glosses "on every high hill and under every green tree", so to speak.  I am rather loathe to follow such a practice and prefer to retain the text as we have it.  There is, however, one place which seems to me must certainly have been a marginal comment whch was then taken up into the text.  This is 16.15.  Curiously enough, this is not tagged by anyone else as a gloss.  Yet, it seems totally out of place coming between the description of the "foul spirits" going forth for the gathering of the nations to battle and the statement that they "assembled them at a place which is called in Hebrew Armageddon."  What relevance the statement that Christ is coming as a thief in the night has to such a sequence is puzzling if it were taken to be authentic.  It would seem to me that the reluctance to consider this a gloss when so much else has been considered as such rests upon the desire of the commentators to find seven makarisms in the Apocalypse.  While seven is certainly a recurring quantity in the book and has a special, and well-known, significance, the author, who elsewhere has not been reluctant to point out the number seven, never states that there are seven makarisms. 
       
      gfsomsel
    • P. Alain-Marie de Lassus
      ... Caird ( The Revelation of St. John the Divine , 208-209) and Hemer ( The Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia in their Local Setting , 145-146) have given
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 18 2:14 AM
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        le 18/04/04 10:04, polycarp66@... à polycarp66@... a écrit :

        > It is well-known that certain scholars such as R. H. Charles went overboard
        > in finding redactions and glosses "on every high hill and under every green
        > tree", so to speak. I am rather loathe to follow such a practice and prefer
        > to
        > retain the text as we have it. There is, however, one place which seems to me
        > must certainly have been a marginal comment whch was then taken up into the
        > text. This is 16.15. Curiously enough, this is not tagged by anyone else as
        > a
        > gloss. Yet, it seems totally out of place coming between the description of
        > the "foul spirits" going forth for the gathering of the nations to battle and
        > the statement that they "assembled them at a place which is called in Hebrew
        > Armageddon." What relevance the statement that Christ is coming as a thief in
        > the night has to such a sequence is puzzling if it were taken to be authentic.
        > It would seem to me that the reluctance to consider this a gloss when so much
        > else has been considered as such rests upon the desire of the commentators to
        > find seven makarisms in the Apocalypse. While seven is certainly a recurring
        > quantity in the book and has a special, and well-known, significance, the
        > author, who elsewhere has not been reluctant to point out the number seven,
        > never
        > states that there are seven makarisms.
        >
        > gfsomsel
        >
        Caird ("The Revelation of St. John the Divine", 208-209) and Hemer ("The
        Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia in their Local Setting", 145-146) have
        given arguments to show that Rev. 16:15 is not out of place. I find their
        arguments convincing.

        Alain de Lassus
      • Ramsey Michaels
        Some years ago I suggested in an NTS article (37.4, p. 613) that 16:14 is already an explanatory narrative aside by the author, explaining the three unclean
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 18 4:55 AM
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          Some years ago I suggested in an NTS article (37.4, p. 613) that 16:14 is already an explanatory "narrative aside" by the author, explaining the "three unclean spirits like frogs" (v 13). Such narrative comments (here introduced by eisin gar) are common in Revelation.
           
          If this is so, then v 15 can be seen as simply an extension of this narrative aside, identifying the narrative voice as that of Jesus Christ, who "comes as a thief." Thus it is not a question of v 15 but of vv 14-15 as being "narrative asides," a term I prefer to gloss. Gloss implies someone other than the author. To me the book is the work of one author speaking with several narrative voices.
           
          Ramsey Michaels
           
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 4:04 AM
          Subject: [revelation-list] Re 16.15 a gloss?

          It is well-known that certain scholars such as R. H. Charles went overboard in finding redactions and glosses "on every high hill and under every green tree", so to speak.  I am rather loathe to follow such a practice and prefer to retain the text as we have it.  There is, however, one place which seems to me must certainly have been a marginal comment whch was then taken up into the text.  This is 16.15.  Curiously enough, this is not tagged by anyone else as a gloss.  Yet, it seems totally out of place coming between the description of the "foul spirits" going forth for the gathering of the nations to battle and the statement that they "assembled them at a place which is called in Hebrew Armageddon."  What relevance the statement that Christ is coming as a thief in the night has to such a sequence is puzzling if it were taken to be authentic.  It would seem to me that the reluctance to consider this a gloss when so much else has been considered as such rests upon the desire of the commentators to find seven makarisms in the Apocalypse.  While seven is certainly a recurring quantity in the book and has a special, and well-known, significance, the author, who elsewhere has not been reluctant to point out the number seven, never states that there are seven makarisms. 
           
          gfsomsel

        • RalphBass
          16:15 ( Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not see
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 18 5:02 AM
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            16:15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake
            and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not
            see his shame.") Christ's seeming delay and unexpected coming (16:15) was
            illustrated in Christ's parable of the wedding feast.



            Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 "The kingdom of heaven
            may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he
            sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast,
            and they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent out other slaves saying,
            'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my
            oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready;
            come to the wedding feast." ' 5 But they paid no attention and went their
            way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his
            slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged, and
            he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
            (Matthew 22:1-7, NASB95)


            For nearly forty years now, from the death of Christ to the destruction of
            Jerusalem, Christ's servants have been inviting the inhabitants of Judea to
            the wedding feast, but they were unwilling to come. Indeed, they seized some
            and mistreated and killed others. And now the enraged king has sent his
            armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.



            In the beginning of the Revelation, here in the middle, and finally at the
            end, the writer warns his readers of His soon coming in judgement. Matthew
            made the same point.



            Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is
            coming. (Matthew 24:42, NASB95)


            But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to
            escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before
            the Son of Man. (Luke 21:36, NASB95)


            These verses clearly teach the importance of alertness and preparation for
            the quick return of Christ. This was a first century message. The readers of
            Revelation would, no doubt, understand that this message was for them. It
            was they that must stay awake (16:15). This is not to say that a future
            bodily return of Christ is not also impending, it certainly is, only that
            this passage and the one in Matthew and Luke are not dealing with Christ's
            bodily return on the last day, but with His coming in judgement on Jerusalem
            in 70 A.D.



            But what of the part about keeping his clothes (16:15) and being naked
            (16:15)? That certainly appears to be an esoteric element (one of many in
            Revelation). Interestingly, Edersheim tells of the role of the Temple guards
            in keeping watch during the night and how the captain of the guard would
            check on them during the watch. If he found any asleep, he would beat them.
            If he found them asleep a second time, he would set their clothes on fire.
            And remember, it was not uncommon for a person to own only one set of
            clothes in that day! Edersheim says,



            Perhaps one of the most striking instances of this kind is afforded by the
            words quoted at the head of this chapter-'Blessed is he that watcheth, and
            keepeth his garments.' They literally describe, as we learn from the Rabbis,
            the punishment awarded to the Temple-guards if found asleep at their posts;
            and the Rabbinical account of it is curiously confirmed by the somewhat
            naive confession of one of their number, that on a certain occasion his own
            maternal uncle had actually undergone the punishment of having his clothes
            set on fire by the captain of the Temple as he went his rounds at night.



            Presumably, he would take them off, burning as they were, as quickly as
            possible under those circumstances and thereby find himself naked (16:15).
            The message is one of watchfulness. The faithful watched and were not caught
            up in the destruction of Jerusalem. Others slept, while ostensibly guarding
            the things of God, the Temple, and are now being stripped of their country,
            city, clothes and lives as all are now burnt up in the fire, not to speak of
            the eternal damnation that awaits them.

            Sincerely,

            Ralph E. Bass, Jr.
            Back To The Future
            A Commentary on the Book of Revelation




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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "P. Alain-Marie de Lassus" <alain.m.delassus@...>
            To: "Revelation List" <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 5:14 AM
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re 16.15 a gloss?


            le 18/04/04 10:04, polycarp66@... à polycarp66@... a écrit :

            > It is well-known that certain scholars such as R. H. Charles went
            overboard
            > in finding redactions and glosses "on every high hill and under every
            green
            > tree", so to speak. I am rather loathe to follow such a practice and
            prefer
            > to
            > retain the text as we have it. There is, however, one place which seems
            to me
            > must certainly have been a marginal comment whch was then taken up into
            the
            > text. This is 16.15. Curiously enough, this is not tagged by anyone else
            as
            > a
            > gloss. Yet, it seems totally out of place coming between the description
            of
            > the "foul spirits" going forth for the gathering of the nations to battle
            and
            > the statement that they "assembled them at a place which is called in
            Hebrew
            > Armageddon." What relevance the statement that Christ is coming as a
            thief in
            > the night has to such a sequence is puzzling if it were taken to be
            authentic.
            > It would seem to me that the reluctance to consider this a gloss when so
            much
            > else has been considered as such rests upon the desire of the commentators
            to
            > find seven makarisms in the Apocalypse. While seven is certainly a
            recurring
            > quantity in the book and has a special, and well-known, significance, the
            > author, who elsewhere has not been reluctant to point out the number
            seven,
            > never
            > states that there are seven makarisms.
            >
            > gfsomsel
            >
            Caird ("The Revelation of St. John the Divine", 208-209) and Hemer ("The
            Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia in their Local Setting", 145-146) have
            given arguments to show that Rev. 16:15 is not out of place. I find their
            arguments convincing.

            Alain de Lassus




            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Stephen Goranson
            I also think that it is quite likely that the author was well aware that the Blessings in the book were precisely seven. Please, gfsomsel, sign posts with a
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 18 5:47 AM
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              I also think that it is quite likely that the author was well aware that the
              Blessings in the book were precisely seven.

              Please, gfsomsel, sign posts with a less cryptic, less needlessly obscure, name
              representation.

              Stephen Goranson
            • polycarp66@aol.com
              In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:03:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ralphbass@digitran.net writes: 16:15 ( Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 18 8:37 AM
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                In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:03:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ralphbass@... writes:
                16:15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who stays awake
                and keeps his clothes, so that he will not walk about naked and men will not
                see his shame.") Christ's seeming delay and unexpected coming (16:15) was
                illustrated in Christ's parable of the wedding feast.

                Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2 "The kingdom of heaven
                may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3 And he
                sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast,
                and they were unwilling to come. 4 Again he sent out other slaves saying,
                'Tell those who have been invited, "Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my
                oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready;
                come to the wedding feast." ' 5 But they paid no attention and went their
                way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6 and the rest seized his
                slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7 But the king was enraged, and
                he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.
                (Matthew 22:1-7, NASB95)

                For nearly forty years now, from the death of Christ to the destruction of
                Jerusalem, Christ's servants have been inviting the inhabitants of Judea to
                the wedding feast, but they were unwilling to come. Indeed, they seized some
                and mistreated and killed others. And now the enraged king has sent his
                armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire.

                In the beginning of the Revelation, here in the middle, and finally at the
                end, the writer warns his readers of His soon coming in judgement. Matthew
                made the same point.

                Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is
                coming. (Matthew 24:42, NASB95)

                But keep on the alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to
                escape all these things that are about to take place, and to stand before
                the Son of Man. (Luke 21:36, NASB95)

                These verses clearly teach the importance of alertness and preparation for
                the quick return of Christ. This was a first century message. The readers of
                Revelation would, no doubt, understand that this message was for them. It
                was they that must stay awake (16:15). This is not to say that a future
                bodily return of Christ is not also impending, it certainly is, only that
                this passage and the one in Matthew and Luke are not dealing with Christ's
                bodily return on the last day, but with His coming in judgement on Jerusalem
                in 70 A.D.

                But what of the part about keeping his clothes (16:15) and being naked
                (16:15)? That certainly appears to be an esoteric element (one of many in
                Revelation). Interestingly, Edersheim tells of the role of the Temple guards
                in keeping watch during the night and how the captain of the guard would
                check on them during the watch. If he found any asleep, he would beat them.
                If he found them asleep a second time, he would set their clothes on fire.
                And remember, it was not uncommon for a person to own only one set of
                clothes in that day! Edersheim says,

                Perhaps one of the most striking instances of this kind is afforded by the
                words quoted at the head of this chapter-'Blessed is he that watcheth, and
                keepeth his garments.' They literally describe, as we learn from the Rabbis,
                the punishment awarded to the Temple-guards if found asleep at their posts;
                and the Rabbinical account of it is curiously confirmed by the somewhat
                naive confession of one of their number, that on a certain occasion his own
                maternal uncle had actually undergone the punishment of having his clothes
                set on fire by the captain of the Temple as he went his rounds at night.

                Presumably, he would take them off, burning as they were, as quickly as
                possible under those circumstances and thereby find himself naked (16:15).
                The message is one of watchfulness. The faithful watched and were not caught
                up in the destruction of Jerusalem. Others slept, while ostensibly guarding
                the things of God, the Temple, and are now being stripped of their country,
                city, clothes and lives as all are now burnt up in the fire, not to speak of
                the eternal damnation that awaits them.
                __________
                 
                I assume from what you have written that you are implying that this is not untypical of Jesus' admonitions as he is depicted in the gospels.  This would not contended by any as far as I know (They might contend that the gospels are not an absolutely accurate reflection of the historical Jesus, but they would not contend that the gospels do portray him thus.).  This does not, however, solve the problem.  Why would the author drop such an unconnected saying in the midst of a passage?  It would be virtually the same as though he were to insert another saying of Jesus here such as "Foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests . . ."  What is the connection with the context?  The lack of connection with the passage I cited is only one of degree.  It would seem that some pious copyist wrote this in the margin as a reminder that despite all the turmoil Christ was coming so that there was a need to remain steadfast and that this subsequently got included with the text itself.
                 
                gfsomsel
              • polycarp66@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:19:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, profram@comcast.net writes: Some years ago I suggested in an NTS article (37.4, p. 613) that
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 18 8:40 AM
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                  In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:19:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, profram@... writes:
                  Some years ago I suggested in an NTS article (37.4, p. 613) that 16:14 is already an explanatory "narrative aside" by the author, explaining the "three unclean spirits like frogs" (v 13). Such narrative comments (here introduced by eisin gar) are common in Revelation.
                   
                  If this is so, then v 15 can be seen as simply an extension of this narrative aside, identifying the narrative voice as that of Jesus Christ, who "comes as a thief." Thus it is not a question of v 15 but of vv 14-15 as being "narrative asides," a term I prefer to gloss. Gloss implies someone other than the author. To me the book is the work of one author speaking with several narrative voices.
                  _________
                   
                  This is an interesting proposal, but it does not solve the dilemma that 16.15 in not congruent with its context.  The question remains:  "Why and how did this get written in its current location?"  Even if 16.14 is taken as a narrative aside, 16.15 is an aside from the aside.
                   
                  gfsomsel
                • polycarp66@aol.com
                  In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:49:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, goranson@duke.edu writes: I also think that it is quite likely that the author was well aware
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 18 9:01 AM
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                    In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:49:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, goranson@... writes:
                    I also think that it is quite likely that the author was well aware that the
                    Blessings in the book were precisely seven.
                    ________
                     
                    Our author was not loathe to specify that there were seven lampstands representing seven churches and seven spirits of God.  He also enumerated seven seals, four angels holding back the winds, seven trumpets, seven bowls of wrath and three woes.  Nowhere does he specify that there are seven makarisms.  Even had he thus specified, the question would remain "Why is this placed here?" though, in such a case its authenticity would not then be in question.
                     
                    gfsomsel
                  • Ramsey Michaels
                    Possibly the phrase, the great day of God the Almighty (v 14) called to the author s mind the familiar phrase day of the Lord, which in turn triggered the
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 18 10:06 AM
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                      Possibly the phrase, "the great day of God the Almighty" (v 14) called to the author's mind the familiar phrase "day of the Lord," which in turn triggered the language of v 15, in light of the notion that "the day of the Lord" comes as a thief (1 Thess 5). Notice the variant reading, "behold he comes," or perhaps "it comes" as a thief in Codex Sinaiticus.
                       
                      Ramsey Michaels
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 11:40 AM
                      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re 16.15 a gloss?

                      In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:19:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, profram@... writes:
                      Some years ago I suggested in an NTS article (37.4, p. 613) that 16:14 is already an explanatory "narrative aside" by the author, explaining the "three unclean spirits like frogs" (v 13). Such narrative comments (here introduced by eisin gar) are common in Revelation.
                       
                      If this is so, then v 15 can be seen as simply an extension of this narrative aside, identifying the narrative voice as that of Jesus Christ, who "comes as a thief." Thus it is not a question of v 15 but of vv 14-15 as being "narrative asides," a term I prefer to gloss. Gloss implies someone other than the author. To me the book is the work of one author speaking with several narrative voices.
                      _________
                       
                      This is an interesting proposal, but it does not solve the dilemma that 16.15 in not congruent with its context.  The question remains:  "Why and how did this get written in its current location?"  Even if 16.14 is taken as a narrative aside, 16.15 is an aside from the aside.
                       
                      gfsomsel
                    • Timothy P. Jenney
                      I suggest that 16:15 is original with the author and essential to the structure and meaning of the Apocalypse. Note that each of the book¹s septets are
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 18 2:19 PM
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                        Re: [revelation-list] Re 16.15 a gloss?
                        I suggest that 16:15 is original with the author and essential to the structure and meaning of the Apocalypse.

                        Note that each of the book’s septets are interrupted between the sixth and seventh of the series: the breaking of the seals by the worshipping multitude (Rev. 7), the blasts of the shophar by the appearance of the three witnesses [the author(?) + two others], 10:1-11:14, the libations by this exhortation at 16:15.

                         Furthermore, I think this is the way in which the author sought to identify his own position [and his audience’s] in the septets. It is near the end of human history, an unexpected gap in the series that has allowed for the evangelization of the Gentiles and the appearance of the Church. If one reads the septets as parallels that places him [and us!] at 666.

                        Nevertheless, the harvest (14:14ff) will soon be over, so everyone must be ready for the Messiah’s return (16:15). The harvest festival [Sukkoth] is about to begin!

                        Timothy P. Jenney
                        PhD NES (U Mich, 1993)
                        Winter Haven, FL

                        “Revelation” in the Life in the Spirit NT Commentary


                        From: "Ramsey Michaels" <profram@...>
                        Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 07:55:26 -0400
                        To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
                        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re 16.15 a gloss?

                        Some years ago I suggested in an NTS article (37.4, p. 613) that 16:14 is already an explanatory "narrative aside" by the author, explaining the "three unclean spirits like frogs" (v 13). Such narrative comments (here introduced by eisin gar) are common in Revelation.
                         
                        If this is so, then v 15 can be seen as simply an extension of this narrative aside, identifying the narrative voice as that of Jesus Christ, who "comes as a thief." Thus it is not a question of v 15 but of vv 14-15 as being "narrative asides," a term I prefer to gloss. Gloss implies someone other than the author. To me the book is the work of one author speaking with several narrative voices.
                         
                        Ramsey Michaels
                         
                         
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----

                        From:  polycarp66@...
                         
                        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com  
                         
                        Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2004 4:04 AM
                         
                        Subject: [revelation-list] Re 16.15 a  gloss?
                         

                         
                        It is well-known that certain scholars such  as R. H. Charles went overboard in finding redactions and glosses "on every  high hill and under every green tree", so to speak.  I am rather loathe  to follow such a practice and prefer to retain the text as we have it.   There is, however, one place which seems to me must certainly have been a  marginal comment whch was then taken up into the text.  This is  16.15.  Curiously enough, this is not tagged by anyone else as a  gloss.  Yet, it seems totally out of place coming between the description  of the "foul spirits" going forth for the gathering of the nations  to battle and the statement that they "assembled them at a place which is  called in Hebrew Armageddon."  What relevance the statement that Christ  is coming as a thief in the night has to such a sequence is puzzling if it  were taken to be authentic.  It would seem to me that the reluctance to  consider this a gloss when so much else has been considered as such rests upon  the desire of the commentators to find seven makarisms in the  Apocalypse.  While seven is certainly a recurring quantity in the book  and has a special, and well-known, significance, the author, who elsewhere has  not been reluctant to point out the number seven, never states that there are  seven makarisms.  
                         
                         
                         
                        gfsomsel



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                      • polycarp66@aol.com
                        In a message dated 4/18/2004 5:20:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drjenney@earthlink.net writes: Nevertheless, the harvest (14:14ff) will soon be over, so
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 18 3:02 PM
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                          In a message dated 4/18/2004 5:20:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drjenney@... writes:
                          Nevertheless, the harvest (14:14ff) will soon be over, so everyone must be ready for the Messiah’s return (16:15). The harvest festival [Sukkoth] is about to begin!
                          _________________
                           
                          The harvest is already past.  This is the destruction of Jerusalem.  The extent of the flow of the blood is ~189 miles which, taken from the epicenter of Jerusalem, would cover the entire land.  Similarly, the measurements of the New Jerusalem would cover the Roman Empire and thus represent the conquering of the world-system by the Christian faith.
                           
                          gfsomsel
                        • Timothy P. Jenney
                          From: polycarp66@aol.com Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:02:28 EDT To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re:
                          Message 12 of 16 , Apr 18 5:36 PM
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                            Re: [revelation-list] Re 16.15 a gloss?


                            From: polycarp66@...
                            Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2004 18:02:28 EDT
                            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re 16.15 a gloss?

                            In a message dated 4/18/2004 5:20:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drjenney@... writes:
                            Nevertheless, the harvest (14:14ff) will soon be over, so everyone must be ready for the Messiah’s return (16:15). The harvest festival [Sukkoth] is about to begin!
                            _________________
                             
                            The harvest is already past.  This is the destruction of Jerusalem.  The extent of the flow of the blood is ~189 miles which, taken from the epicenter of Jerusalem, would cover the entire land.  Similarly, the measurements of the New Jerusalem would cover the Roman Empire and thus represent the conquering of the world-system by the Christian faith.
                             
                            Gfsomsel
                            -------

                            It’s certainly a possibility. There are two harvests in 14 though, not one. I think the grape harvest symbolizes Christian martyrs [or at least includes them]. Note that the blood that fills the seven vials is that of prophets AND saints (16:5f). When the number of these martyrs is complete, the End will come (Rev. 6:9-11).

                            I should add that my theory is that Revelation’s liturgical passages are an eschatologically heightened Sukkoth [Tabernacles] celebration. I argued this in my 1993 U Mich dissertation, The Harvest of the Earth.

                            Timothy P. Jenney


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                          • polycarp66@aol.com
                            In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:37:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drjenney@earthlink.net writes: It’s certainly a possibility. There are two harvests in 14
                            Message 13 of 16 , Apr 18 7:56 PM
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                              In a message dated 4/18/2004 8:37:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, drjenney@... writes:

                              It’s certainly a possibility. There are two harvests in 14 though, not one. I think the grape harvest symbolizes Christian martyrs [or at least includes them]. Note that the blood that fills the seven vials is that of prophets AND saints (16:5f). When the number of these martyrs is complete, the End will come (Rev. 6:9-11).

                              I should add that my theory is that Revelation’s liturgical passages are an eschatologically heightened Sukkoth [Tabernacles] celebration. I argued this in my 1993 U Mich dissertation, The Harvest of the Earth.
                              ______________
                               
                              I think it would be going beyond the evidence to say that the seven vials contain the blood of the martyrs.  While the sea and the fresh water sources are said to turn to blood, it is nowhere stated that the vials contained blood but rather that they are the vials of the Wrath of God.  Also, it should be noted that the pouring of the vials on other portions of the cosmos does not produce blood.  That the grape harvest symbolizes the Christian martyrs is, in my opinion, precisely wrong since they are thrown into the wine-press of the Wrath of God.  This is rather God's wrath against those who rejected the Son.
                               
                              I'm not ready to say that ALL the liturgical passages refer to Sukkoth.  It is relatively certain, however, that this is in view with regard to the 144,000 sealed from the twelve tribes in chapter 7 since the great multitude is there pictured as having palm branches in their hands.  Also, in chapter 14, when the 144,000 again appear on the heavenly Mount Zion they themselves have palm branches and are specifically designated as first fruits.
                               
                              gfsomsel
                            • Ian Paul
                              ... But you only have to look at the amazing complex of words occurring four, seven, ten, 14 and 28 times (Richard Bauckham gives a start in Climax of
                              Message 14 of 16 , Apr 19 1:46 AM
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                                On Sunday, April 18, 2004, at 05:01 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:

                                > Our author was not loathe to specify that there were seven lampstands
                                > representing seven churches and seven spirits of God.  He also
                                > enumerated seven seals, four angels holding back the winds, seven
                                > trumpets, seven bowls of wrath and three woes.  Nowhere does he
                                > specify that there are seven makarisms.  Even had he thus specified,
                                > the question would remain "Why is this placed here?" though, in such a
                                > case its authenticity would not then be in question.
                                >
                                But you only have to look at the amazing complex of words occurring
                                four, seven, ten, 14 and 28 times (Richard Bauckham gives a start in
                                Climax of Prophecy) to see that there are structures in the book which
                                are not made explicit.

                                If you are suggesting that we can effectively discard part of the text
                                unless we see a reason for it being there--I think I would want to take
                                issue with your methodology!

                                Ian Paul
                                _________________
                                Revd Dr Ian Paul
                                Director of Partnership Development, St John's College, Bramcote, Nottm
                                NG9 3DS
                                w 0115 925 1114 x 254 h 01202 745963 m 07974 351502
                                Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
                                9HU
                                01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
                                http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
                              • polycarp66@aol.com
                                In a message dated 4/19/2004 4:51:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, editor@grovebooks.co.uk writes: But you only have to look at the amazing complex of words
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 19 5:26 AM
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                                  In a message dated 4/19/2004 4:51:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, editor@... writes:
                                  But you only have to look at the amazing complex of words occurring
                                  four, seven, ten, 14 and 28 times (Richard Bauckham gives a start in
                                  Climax of Prophecy) to see that there are structures in the book which
                                  are not made explicit.

                                  If you are suggesting that we can effectively discard part of the text
                                  unless we see a reason for it being there--I think I would want to take
                                  issue with your methodology!
                                  _________
                                   
                                  Do you mean to say that if you were to find (hypothetically speaking, of course) a passage with a recipe for Trout Munieres in the middle, you would have any hesitation in saying it wasn't original?  I find something amiss with that methodology.
                                   
                                  gfsomsel
                                • Ian Paul
                                  ... What I would do is ask: 1. whether it is genuine data in the text, or has been constructed by unjustifiably selective reading 2. whether this was a
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 19 6:50 AM
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                                    On Monday, April 19, 2004, at 01:26 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:

                                    > Do you mean to say that if you were to find (hypothetically speaking,
                                    > of course) a passage with a recipe for Trout Munieres in the middle,
                                    > you would have any hesitation in saying it wasn't original?  I find
                                    > something amiss with that methodology.
                                    >
                                    What I would do is ask:

                                    1. whether it is genuine data in the text, or has been constructed by
                                    unjustifiably selective reading
                                    2. whether this was a possible significance of the text for the author
                                    3. whether an informed first reader might have been able to discern
                                    this (ie so that this feature of the text was a genuine act of
                                    communication, which presumably all texts are intended to be)
                                    4. whether this could fit with the explicit (ie expressed at the level
                                    of semantic content) theology of the text.

                                    All four are satisfied in the observation of word frequencies (see my
                                    Grove booklet on the subject http://www.grovebooks.co.uk) whereas the
                                    supposed recipe for Trout Munieres would, I think, fall at every step.
                                    (As an alternative example, the Bible Code stuff fails at least at
                                    steps 1, 3 and 4.)

                                    There is also the question of burden of proof, that is, if we think
                                    that text has been added, we would need to support this with a good
                                    reason why a later scribe would see the need for this. (As an example,
                                    there are two good reasons for justifying the alternative reading of
                                    616 in Rev 13.18 which explains why it might have arisen, and
                                    additionally makes sense of the primary reading 666). The difficulty in
                                    16.15 is constructing a plausible meaning for the text *without* the
                                    interpolation (the meaning for the author) and constructing a plausible
                                    meaning for the text *with* the interpolation (the meaning for the
                                    later scribe/editor) and being able to tell the difference and how we
                                    might attribute these two meanings to the two people concerned the
                                    right way around (since if they are attributed the other way around,
                                    then the scribe should have taken text out not added it in).

                                    What I would avoid is:
                                    1. assuming that if something does not fit in with my reading, then it
                                    could not have fitted with the author's (possibly incoherent) intention
                                    2. offering slightly facile illustrations as a counter to a serious
                                    comment
                                    3. going under an anonymous signature in my emails

                                    regards

                                    Ian Paul
                                    _________________
                                    Revd Dr Ian Paul
                                    Director of Partnership Development, St John's College, Bramcote, Nottm
                                    NG9 3DS
                                    w 0115 925 1114 x 254 h 01202 745963 m 07974 351502
                                    Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
                                    9HU
                                    01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
                                    http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
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