Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [revelation-list] the theophanic thunderous thunders!

Expand Messages
  • Keith Starkey
    Hello gfsomsel, I forgot my password to the forum, and I deleted the messages I received from them, so I couldn t respond. Had to wait until another message
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 19, 2004
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello gfsomsel,
      I forgot my password to the forum, and I deleted the messages I received
      from them, so I couldn't respond. Had to wait until another message came
      through. Sorry for the delay.


      gfsomsel:
      The inarticulateness is in regard to OT thunders accompanying theophanies.

      And ...

      The question was specifically regarding whether the thunders are indeed
      sealed permanently as well as the content of the scroll. You seem to think
      the thunders can be equated to the trumpets. On what basis?
      Because the one succeeds the other?

      Starkman:
      First, the scroll isn't sealed; it's open, lying in the hand of the angel (I
      know you are aware of that!). Second, the thunders are sealed, but, as I
      noted, I cannot see how they will (would) remain sealed. Otherwise, why
      bring them up? Third, No, I do not equate the thunders to the trumpets. I
      have only noted that the thunders are judgements, that they are included
      within the sixth trumpet's sounding.

      gfsomsel:
      The rumbing noises you refer to in Ezekiel are the wings of the Cherubim in
      the transportation account. I fail to see that it has any particular
      relation or parallel to the thunders in this passage. The thunders seem to
      be the accompaniment of a theophanic event, but I'm loathe to equate them
      with the whirling of the wings of the Cherubim. In Ex 19.16, e.g. "there
      were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mountain" as an
      accompaniment to the theophany. In 2 Sam 22.14 we have

      "The LORD thundered from heaven,
      The Most High uttered his voice."

      Starkman:
      I'm simply noting that the close proximity of the measuring of Jerusalem and
      the witnesses in Zech 2 and 3 and the measuring of the temple and then the
      two witnesses in Revelation 11 suggests a possible relationship between
      Ezekiel's scroll-eating and the thunderous movement of the cherubim with
      John's scroll eating and the thunderous utterances.

      In view of the theophanic event contextualizing the cherubim in Ezekiel and
      in Revelation--considering, too, the references you noted in regard to the
      LORD thundering from heaven, etc.,--I to not deem it worth loathing a
      consideration for the thunders to be in relationship to both judgement and
      the cherubim's thunderous sounds (in Ezekiel); those sounds reflecting the
      movement of the God who judges. No, the thunders of Revelation are not the
      cherubim, but I think thunder, in general, reflects something of both the
      presence of God (as you noted) and of His judgements, be they positive or
      negative.

      gfsomsel:
      In Re 4 it likewise mentions lightning flashes and peals of thunder in the
      throne-room scene. This really seems more equivalent to me -- especially in
      view of the fact that it speaks of seven thunders here which is parallel to
      the Seven Spirits as well as the seven eyes and seven horns of the Lamb.

      Starkman:
      I do not parallel the thunderous utterances in Revelation 10 with the Seven
      Spirits or the Lamb's eyes or anything like that (save those "sevens" which
      are references to judgement) just because there are sevens in each of them.
      I do agree with you, however, that there is relationship between the
      cherubim in the throne room and cherubim in Ezekiel.

      You know, gfsomsel, as I think about this more, I can appreciate your
      rejection of my parallels; however, let me say that something unique about
      the cherubim throughout Scripture is that they are very closely tied to--as
      if to represent--the "in between" of God and man; they are there on the
      Mercy Seat, their in the artwork of the temple, they're present when God is
      about to judge, and they're present in worship. And all of this is in
      context to the work of God through the Christ to redeem mankind. So, from a
      broad perspective (and, again, from the close proximities of the parallels
      I've mentioned), I see a relationship between the thunderous utterances and
      the thundering cherubim, but I will say that this is a broad perspective!

      _________________________________________________________________
      Find a broadband plan that fits. Great local deals on high-speed Internet
      access. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/
    • polycarp66@aol.com
      In a message dated 3/22/2004 1:22:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, keith_starkey@hotmail.com writes: The question was specifically regarding whether the thunders
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 22, 2004
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 3/22/2004 1:22:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, keith_starkey@... writes:

        The question was specifically regarding whether the thunders are indeed
        sealed permanently as well as the content of the scroll.  You seem to think
        the thunders can be equated to the trumpets.  On what basis?
        Because the one succeeds the other?

        Starkman:
        First, the scroll isn't sealed; it's open, lying in the hand of the angel (I
        know you are aware of that!). Second, the thunders are sealed, but, as I
        noted, I cannot see how they will (would) remain sealed. Otherwise, why
        bring them up? Third, No, I do not equate the thunders to the trumpets. I
        have only noted that the thunders are judgements, that they are included
        within the sixth trumpet's sounding.
        __________
         
        No, I'm not implying in any sense that the thunders are to be equated to the trumpets.  I'm simply wondering what the function of the introduction of the thunders with the admonition to seal what they say might be.  Personally, I tend to think that their utterances would remain sealed which is precisely what puzzles me.  If what they say is subsequently revealed, it would be equivalent to the infamous "Not to mention . . . " where the speaker then procedes to mention precisely what he has said he will not mention.  If, on the other hand, they remain sealed and do serve a function (as I presume they do), is it simply to emphasize that God's counsel will not be completely revealed?  A theophany could be simply designated by the customary thundering without any mention of their having been articulate.
        __________
        Starkman:
        In view of the theophanic event contextualizing the cherubim in Ezekiel and
        in Revelation--considering, too, the references you noted in regard to the
        LORD thundering from heaven, etc.,--*****I to not deem it worth loathing a
        consideration**** for the thunders to be in relationship to both judgement and
        the cherubim's thunderous sounds (in Ezekiel); those sounds reflecting the
        movement of the God who judges.
        _________
        I think you may have misspoken here.  In any event, I don't understand what you intend.  Note the section set off with *****.
        gfsomsel
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.