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Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2

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  • polycarp66@aol.com
    In a message dated 1/28/2004 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... __________ We divide it a bit differently. My overall structure of the book is 1.
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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      In a message dated 1/28/2004 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:



      First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings.  Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly rebuilding of the Temple and a reinstitution of the Mosaic law/sacrificial system (which has been fulfilled in God's Christ). 

      Secondly, I do not follow the three-fold division of the Revelation into the things "which you have seen, the things which are, and the things which are to come."  The Apocalypse is simply too non-lineal to support that view (otherwise, you would have at least five falls of Babylon between chapters 11-22).  Instead, I side with David Aune and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza in viewing the progressive action of the Apocalypse in successively more powerful symbolic systems.  My own division of the book as a whole is thus:

      Prologue and Epistolary Introduction (1:1-3:22)
      Heavenly Throneroom Vision (4:1-11:18)
      Cosmic War Vision (11:19-22:5)
      Epilogue and Epistolary Ending (22:6-21)


      __________

      We divide it a bit differently.  My overall structure of the book is

      1. Superscription             1.1-3
      2. Letter Proper             1.4-22.20
            2.1 Salutation             1.4-8
            2.2 Prophetic Call Report 1.9-3.22
            2.3 Heavenly Journey Report 4.1-22.20
            2.4 Closing Salutation      22.21

      I consider the entire book to be in the form of a letter with a superscription which would be on the outside much as we would have a title on the spine of a book today.  The remainder is the letter proper. Note that the Letters to the Seven Churches are subsumed within the Prophetic Call Report which has a General and a Specific section which is not detailed here.  The Letters to the Seven Churches themselves are under the specific section.  Within the Heavenly Journey Report there is the Throne Room scene and the Report of the Opening of the Book of Destiny.  Under the opening category are the opening of each of the seven seals with an interlude for the sealing of God's people consisting of the 144,000 Israelites and the innumerable multitude of the Church.  In my view the Seventh Seal continues until 22.20 as a setting forth of the Heilsgeschichte. 

      I too would probably most appropriately fit in the category of preterism though my views are much different from those of Grudem, e.g.  I do not hold to an early date for the writing of the Apocalypse.  As a matter of fact, I place it much later than is generally done.  I would say most certainly 135 AD.  (I'm sure someone will ask about this!)

      gfsomsel
    • polycarp66@aol.com
      In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, editor@grovebooks.co.uk writes: ... But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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        In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, editor@... writes:
        On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:
         
        > Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you
        > are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these
        > forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there
        > will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most
        > emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to
        > literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of
        > the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem,
        > and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal
        > Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material --
        > a part of the Heilsgeschicte.

        But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take
        the woman as being literally clothed with the sun?
        _________________________
         
        I never said that I took it as a literal number.  My understanding of the 144,000 is that it is a symbolic (??) number.  Its purpose is simply to indicate that there is a definite number from the tribes of Israel who are included in the people of God.  The reason for the definiteness of the number as opposed to the "great multitude which no man could number" which is used regarding the Church is that this number HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED whereas the Church was still a work in progress.  I take very little in the Apocalypse as being literally true.  No "Great Whore" rides on the back of a beast.  There is no literal beast from the sea or beast from the land.  Christ does not go forth riding on a horse to execute judgment.  These are all symbolic representations.  They stand for something else which is usually explained in some fashion or is evident if one has a knowledge of the author's sources, viz. the OT and NT and to some degree the apocalyptic literature.
         
        gfsomsel
      • Marko Jauhiainen
        ... I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the measuring of the temple: http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html Shalom, Marko
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 29, 2004
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          Ed Garcia said the following on 28.01 2004 17:05:

          > But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
          > the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
          > please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

          I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the
          measuring of the temple:

          http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html

          Shalom,
          Marko
        • Ed Garcia
          Thank you. I ll take a look. ... From: Marko Jauhiainen [mailto:marko.jauhiainen@tpu.fi] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:34 AM To:
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 29, 2004
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            Thank you. I'll take a look.

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Marko Jauhiainen [mailto:marko.jauhiainen@...]
            Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:34 AM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2




            Ed Garcia said the following on 28.01 2004 17:05:

            > But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
            > the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
            > please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

            I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the

            measuring of the temple:

            http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html

            Shalom,
            Marko



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