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Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2

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  • irbrown@andrews.edu
    Having begun my major graduate research with looking at Rev 11:1-13 as a whole and not specifically the two witnesses, I have some familiarity with debates
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
      Having begun my major graduate research with looking at Rev 11:1-13 as a
      whole and not specifically the two witnesses, I have some familiarity with
      debates over elements of Rev 11:1-2. Most of the work that I did do with
      these two verses centered on interpreting the temple language. The main
      interpretations could be summarized as follows:

      Primarily literal:
      1) Temple language as relating to ancient earthly Jerusalem temple.
      2) ... as relating to future, rebuilt earthly Jerusalem temple.
      Primarily symbolic:
      1) ... as representing the church in some sense.
      2) ... as representing the Jewish people in some sense.
      3) ... as representing the center of the Jewish religion in some sense.
      Literal? Symbolic?
      Temple language as relating to the heavenly temple that is portrayed
      elsewhere in Revelation.

      I wrote a rough paper critiquing the typical arguments used to support
      those views labelled "Primarily symbolic." My conclusions about those
      arguments were not very positive. I can send a cleaned up copy of the
      concluding section of that paper upon request.

      Personally, I favor the last alternative above. In part I do so because
      of its serious consideration of how the author "John" speaks and uses
      language *throughout* the book. At least two authors who speak to this
      are Bachmann (?) and Giblin.

      Perhaps a need in many of the discussions of Rev 11:1-2 is the need to
      integrate that segment in with the content of chapter 10. The end of
      chapter 10 focuses in on the participation of John within the visionary
      experience; chapter 11:1 at least continues that focus. After that John
      becomes less "explicit" within the visionary experience and his main role
      as narrator/explainer resumes its dominance.

      Ian R. Brown
      Ph.D. Candidate
      Andrews University
    • polycarp66@aol.com
      In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:41:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@pcusa.org writes: I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
        In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:41:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:
        I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms.  Certainly in the Ezekiel text there is a sincere desire that the glory of Solomon's temple be reinstituted.  Depending on your dating for the Apocalypse, you can see the desire for a new temple that recaptures the glory of the former (whether Herod's or, more likely, Solomon's) or (in my view) a reclamation of the Temple as a true house of worship to YHWH.  The city, likewise, is presented in a numerically perfect form and is described in aureate tones.  This shows that, like the temple - purged of fornication with the Beast (a corrupt Sadducean priesthood?) - the city is purged of her influences from Roman dominance.  Purified, there are only "dogs without".
        _________
         
        Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem, and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material -- a part of the Heilsgeschicte.
         
        I hear in my mind's ear someone asking, "What about the summons in chapter 4 which states that 'John' would be shown what was "about to happen."  This is a fair question.  This did seem somewhat troublesome when I began to consider the references as applying to things which had already occurred.  If this were the total of what is contained in this "Book of Destiny", it would be a most valid criticism.  I do hold, however, that there are matters in this "Seventh Seal" which are yet coming in the view of our author.  It is this to which the "about to happen" refers.  This involves the ongoing life of the New Jerusalem which is ever "coming down from God out of heaven" and never resides on earth.  This New Jerusalem is envisaged as covering the Roman Empire in its entirety (calculate the dimensions).  Most specifically this refers to the preaching of the word  and the administration of the sacraments.  The Church as the Bride says "Let everyone who is thirsty come to the water" and the congregation as "those who hear" in their turn say "Come."  This is that which is about to happen.
         
        gfsomsel
      • Ron Snider
        I would like a copy of the paper on Rev. 11:1-2. thanks in advance, ron snider
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
          I would like a copy of the paper on Rev. 11:1-2.

          thanks in advance,

          ron snider
        • Chris Larimer
          Thanks for your reply. First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings. Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
            Thanks for your reply.
             
            First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings.  Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly rebuilding of the Temple and a reinstitution of the Mosaic law/sacrificial system (which has been fulfilled in God's Christ). 

            Secondly, I do not follow the three-fold division of the Revelation into the things "which you have seen, the things which are, and the things which are to come."  The Apocalypse is simply too non-lineal to support that view (otherwise, you would have at least five falls of Babylon between chapters 11-22).  Instead, I side with David Aune and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza in viewing the progressive action of the Apocalypse in successively more powerful symbolic systems.  My own division of the book as a whole is thus:
             
            Prologue and Epistolary Introduction (1:1-3:22)
            Heavenly Throneroom Vision (4:1-11:18)
            Cosmic War Vision (11:19-22:5)
            Epilogue and Epistolary Ending (22:6-21)
             
            I see a definite spiraling of events (not parallelisms because the content "touches" too much) that is also chiastically structured.  The chiastic structure is also intentionally a reversal of the prehistoric claims held in the first 11 chapters of Genesis.  Notice that there is a movement away from cities in the Abrahamic cycle and a definite distrust of city life and established religious systems before the time of slavery in Egypt.  That pattern is what I am claiming is reversed (or, in my language, reclaimed for God's holy ones as a righteous way of life).  That's why I posit that the Heavenly City (which is the size of the Roman empire) and the Heavenly Temple (which is the size of Jerusalem, c. 70 AD) are figurative ways of saying that God's reign is extended into secular life (symbolized as the city) and religious life (temple).
             
            Chris Larimer
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 3:22 PM
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2

            In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:41:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:
            I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms.  Certainly in the Ezekiel text there is a sincere desire that the glory of Solomon's temple be reinstituted.  Depending on your dating for the Apocalypse, you can see the desire for a new temple that recaptures the glory of the former (whether Herod's or, more likely, Solomon's) or (in my view) a reclamation of the Temple as a true house of worship to YHWH.  The city, likewise, is presented in a numerically perfect form and is described in aureate tones.  This shows that, like the temple - purged of fornication with the Beast (a corrupt Sadducean priesthood?) - the city is purged of her influences from Roman dominance.  Purified, there are only "dogs without".
            _________
             
            Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem, and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material -- a part of the Heilsgeschicte.
             
            I hear in my mind's ear someone asking, "What about the summons in chapter 4 which states that 'John' would be shown what was "about to happen."  This is a fair question.  This did seem somewhat troublesome when I began to consider the references as applying to things which had already occurred.  If this were the total of what is contained in this "Book of Destiny", it would be a most valid criticism.  I do hold, however, that there are matters in this "Seventh Seal" which are yet coming in the view of our author.  It is this to which the "about to happen" refers.  This involves the ongoing life of the New Jerusalem which is ever "coming down from God out of heaven" and never resides on earth.  This New Jerusalem is envisaged as covering the Roman Empire in its entirety (calculate the dimensions).  Most specifically this refers to the preaching of the word  and the administration of the sacraments.  The Church as the Bride says "Let everyone who is thirsty come to the water" and the congregation as "those who hear" in their turn say "Come."  This is that which is about to happen.
             
            gfsomsel
          • Ian Paul
            On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@aol.com wrote:   ... But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take the woman as
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
              On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:
               
              > Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you
              > are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these
              > forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there
              > will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most
              > emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to
              > literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of
              > the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem,
              > and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal
              > Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material --
              > a part of the Heilsgeschicte.

              But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take
              the woman as being literally clothed with the sun?

              Ian Paul
              ___________________________
              Revd Dr Ian Paul Associate Vicar, St Mary's Longfleet
              32 Penn Hill Avenue Poole Dorset BH14 9LZ
              01202 745963 Fax 01202 385539
              Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
              9HU
              01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
              http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
            • polycarp66@aol.com
              In a message dated 1/28/2004 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... __________ We divide it a bit differently. My overall structure of the book is 1.
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                In a message dated 1/28/2004 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:



                First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings.  Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly rebuilding of the Temple and a reinstitution of the Mosaic law/sacrificial system (which has been fulfilled in God's Christ). 

                Secondly, I do not follow the three-fold division of the Revelation into the things "which you have seen, the things which are, and the things which are to come."  The Apocalypse is simply too non-lineal to support that view (otherwise, you would have at least five falls of Babylon between chapters 11-22).  Instead, I side with David Aune and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza in viewing the progressive action of the Apocalypse in successively more powerful symbolic systems.  My own division of the book as a whole is thus:

                Prologue and Epistolary Introduction (1:1-3:22)
                Heavenly Throneroom Vision (4:1-11:18)
                Cosmic War Vision (11:19-22:5)
                Epilogue and Epistolary Ending (22:6-21)


                __________

                We divide it a bit differently.  My overall structure of the book is

                1. Superscription             1.1-3
                2. Letter Proper             1.4-22.20
                      2.1 Salutation             1.4-8
                      2.2 Prophetic Call Report 1.9-3.22
                      2.3 Heavenly Journey Report 4.1-22.20
                      2.4 Closing Salutation      22.21

                I consider the entire book to be in the form of a letter with a superscription which would be on the outside much as we would have a title on the spine of a book today.  The remainder is the letter proper. Note that the Letters to the Seven Churches are subsumed within the Prophetic Call Report which has a General and a Specific section which is not detailed here.  The Letters to the Seven Churches themselves are under the specific section.  Within the Heavenly Journey Report there is the Throne Room scene and the Report of the Opening of the Book of Destiny.  Under the opening category are the opening of each of the seven seals with an interlude for the sealing of God's people consisting of the 144,000 Israelites and the innumerable multitude of the Church.  In my view the Seventh Seal continues until 22.20 as a setting forth of the Heilsgeschichte. 

                I too would probably most appropriately fit in the category of preterism though my views are much different from those of Grudem, e.g.  I do not hold to an early date for the writing of the Apocalypse.  As a matter of fact, I place it much later than is generally done.  I would say most certainly 135 AD.  (I'm sure someone will ask about this!)

                gfsomsel
              • polycarp66@aol.com
                In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, editor@grovebooks.co.uk writes: ... But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
                  In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, editor@... writes:
                  On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:
                   
                  > Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you
                  > are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these
                  > forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there
                  > will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most
                  > emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to
                  > literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of
                  > the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem,
                  > and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal
                  > Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material --
                  > a part of the Heilsgeschicte.

                  But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take
                  the woman as being literally clothed with the sun?
                  _________________________
                   
                  I never said that I took it as a literal number.  My understanding of the 144,000 is that it is a symbolic (??) number.  Its purpose is simply to indicate that there is a definite number from the tribes of Israel who are included in the people of God.  The reason for the definiteness of the number as opposed to the "great multitude which no man could number" which is used regarding the Church is that this number HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED whereas the Church was still a work in progress.  I take very little in the Apocalypse as being literally true.  No "Great Whore" rides on the back of a beast.  There is no literal beast from the sea or beast from the land.  Christ does not go forth riding on a horse to execute judgment.  These are all symbolic representations.  They stand for something else which is usually explained in some fashion or is evident if one has a knowledge of the author's sources, viz. the OT and NT and to some degree the apocalyptic literature.
                   
                  gfsomsel
                • Marko Jauhiainen
                  ... I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the measuring of the temple: http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html Shalom, Marko
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 29, 2004
                    Ed Garcia said the following on 28.01 2004 17:05:

                    > But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                    > the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                    > please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

                    I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the
                    measuring of the temple:

                    http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html

                    Shalom,
                    Marko
                  • Ed Garcia
                    Thank you. I ll take a look. ... From: Marko Jauhiainen [mailto:marko.jauhiainen@tpu.fi] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:34 AM To:
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 29, 2004
                      Thank you. I'll take a look.

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Marko Jauhiainen [mailto:marko.jauhiainen@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:34 AM
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2




                      Ed Garcia said the following on 28.01 2004 17:05:

                      > But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                      > the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                      > please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

                      I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the

                      measuring of the temple:

                      http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html

                      Shalom,
                      Marko



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