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RE: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2

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  • Duane Carbo
    DSW means Daniel s Seventieth Week . Measure the Temple would imply at the very least that there is a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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      DSW means "Daniel's Seventieth Week". "Measure the Temple" would imply at
      the very least that there is
      a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is actual and not just
      symbolic. That John was told to
      "Rise and measure" implies that he saw then what is prophetically
      predetermined...the rebuilt temple and its
      worshipers.

      Duane Carbo
      Miami Florida


      At 02:47 PM 1/27/2004 -0600, you wrote:
      >What is DSW? Thanks.
      >
      >Ed
      >Kansas
      >
      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: ronsnider1 [mailto:ronpt@...]
      >Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 2:43 PM
      >To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2
      >
      >
      >I am currently studying this book verse by verse from the original
      >languages... I view the temple as the one that will be rebuilt for
      >Daniel's 70th Week, the worshippers must be Jewish priests, and the time
      >of Gentile domination will be the last half of DSW. Why the
      >measurements, why omit the court of the Gentiles, etc?
      >
      >Any insight will be appreciated.
      >
      >Ron Snider
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
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    • Mail Cox
      Dear Ron, The outer court is not included in the measurements because the text, along with Luke 21:24, states Jerusalem will be under the control of Gentiles,
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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        Dear Ron,

        The outer court is not included in the measurements because the text, along
        with Luke 21:24, states Jerusalem will be under the control of Gentiles,
        especially during the final 42 months ... the 1260-day period when the Two
        Anointed Prophets "stand before the God of earth
        (Zech.4:11; Rev.11:4) ... until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
        Mel


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "ronsnider1" <ronpt@...>
        To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 3:43 PM
        Subject: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2


        > I am currently studying this book verse by verse from the original
        languages... I view the temple as the one
        > that will be rebuilt for Daniel's 70th Week, the worshippers must be
        Jewish priests, and the time of Gentile
        > domination will be the last half of DSW. Why the measurements, why omit
        the court of the Gentiles, etc?
        >
        > Any insight will be appreciated.
        >
        > Ron Snider
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/revelation-list/
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Ian Paul
        ... Why? Why should a command like this imply that the temple is literal? What would the command look like if it was symbolic , that is, metaphorical? When
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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          On Tuesday, January 27, 2004, at 09:36 PM, Duane Carbo wrote:

          > DSW means "Daniel's Seventieth Week". "Measure the Temple" would
          > imply at
          > the very least that there is
          > a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is actual and not
          > just
          > symbolic.

          Why?

          Why should a command like this imply that the temple is literal? What
          would the command look like if it was 'symbolic', that is,
          metaphorical? When Jesus said 'A man went out to sow' does this imply
          there was a literal man? Were there, or will there be, four literal
          horses with four literal riders?

          I wonder if I could make a plea, on this list at least, for reflective
          engagement with the nature of metaphorical language...

          Ian Paul
          ___________________________
          Revd Dr Ian Paul Associate Vicar, St Mary's Longfleet
          32 Penn Hill Avenue Poole Dorset BH14 9LZ
          01202 745963 Fax 01202 385539
          Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
          9HU
          01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
          http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
        • Christian Maymann
          Hi! I find, that there are some difficulties, with identifying the worshippers as “Jews priests”: i) The distinction between “Jewish” believers and
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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            Hi!

            I find, that there are some difficulties, with identifying the worshippers
            as “Jews priests”:

            i) The distinction between “Jewish” believers and “non-Jewish (gentile)”
            believers is a question, that is uninteresting in relation to understand the
            book of revelation, and – of cause – chapter 11.

            ii) Then one reads the letters in the first part of the book, ones gets
            the impression that the only true Jewish people, that exists, is the
            Christians who worship Jesus – the Jewish messiah (That is the point of the
            letter in 3:7-13)

            iii) The two persons in the chapter is called “witness”, and that is the
            category, that the book use for Christians in other part of the book (e.g
            2:13)- so chapter 11 must relate to the church of christ, not particulary some
            jewish worshippers


            So the worshipper must be Christian worshippers – if they are jewish or not is
            an un-interesting


            Christian

            Citat Ian Paul <editor@...>:

            >
            > On Tuesday, January 27, 2004, at 09:36 PM, Duane Carbo wrote:
            >
            > > DSW means "Daniel's Seventieth Week". "Measure the Temple" would
            > > imply at
            > > the very least that there is
            > > a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is actual and not
            > > just
            > > symbolic.
            >
            > Why?
            >
            > Why should a command like this imply that the temple is literal? What
            > would the command look like if it was 'symbolic', that is,
            > metaphorical? When Jesus said 'A man went out to sow' does this imply
            > there was a literal man? Were there, or will there be, four literal
            > horses with four literal riders?
            >
            > I wonder if I could make a plea, on this list at least, for reflective
            > engagement with the nature of metaphorical language...
            >
            > Ian Paul
            > ___________________________
            > Revd Dr Ian Paul Associate Vicar, St Mary's Longfleet
            > 32 Penn Hill Avenue Poole Dorset BH14 9LZ
            > 01202 745963 Fax 01202 385539
            > Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
            > 9HU
            > 01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
            > http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/revelation-list/
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
          • Ed Garcia
            I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could not/should not be taken literally. I do not believe that this section in Rev. speaks of a literal
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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              I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could not/should not
              be taken literally. I do not believe that this section in Rev. speaks of
              a literal rebuilding of the temple. There is no real reason to claim
              that it does.

              But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
              the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
              please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

              Ed G.

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Ian Paul [mailto:editor@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 3:23 AM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2



              On Tuesday, January 27, 2004, at 09:36 PM, Duane Carbo wrote:

              > DSW means "Daniel's Seventieth Week". "Measure the Temple" would
              > imply at
              > the very least that there is
              > a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is actual and not
              > just
              > symbolic.

              Why?

              Why should a command like this imply that the temple is literal? What
              would the command look like if it was 'symbolic', that is,
              metaphorical? When Jesus said 'A man went out to sow' does this imply
              there was a literal man? Were there, or will there be, four literal
              horses with four literal riders?

              I wonder if I could make a plea, on this list at least, for reflective
              engagement with the nature of metaphorical language...

              Ian Paul
              ___________________________
              Revd Dr Ian Paul Associate Vicar, St Mary's Longfleet
              32 Penn Hill Avenue Poole Dorset BH14 9LZ
              01202 745963 Fax 01202 385539
              Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
              9HU
              01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
              http://www.grovebooks.co.uk





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            • polycarp66@aol.com
              In a message dated 1/28/2004 10:13:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ed.Garcia@fhlbtopeka.com writes: I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                In a message dated 1/28/2004 10:13:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ed.Garcia@... writes:
                I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could not/should not
                be taken literally. I do not believe that this section in Rev. speaks of
                a literal rebuilding of the temple. There is no real reason to claim
                that it does.

                But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                please excuse my oversight. Thank you.
                _______
                 
                I'm not Ian, but will venture to speak regarding this.
                 
                The measuring of the temple here as in Ezekiel 40 f. sets forth the idea of the construction of the temple.  It is, in itself, a kind of prophecy regarding its construction.  Prophecy should not, however, be understood simply in terms of fore-telling an event but rather as setting forth the event sub specie aeternitatis.  This is in this case particularly true.  Beginning with chapter 4 we have to do with the heavenly journey and what 'John' saw there.  The denouement of this is the opening of the seven-sealed book -- the Divine Book of Destiny.  Within this the opening of the seventh seal is particularly emphasized -- if nothing else due to the space allotted to recounting it.  The first six seals are but a prelude which is cursorily passed over -- the four horsemen detailing the misfortunes that ever beset humanity, the persecution of the righteous, and the cry for justice from the Divine Judge of all.  With the seventh seal we see the beginning of the Heilsgeschichte set forth.  The people of God are marked with a mark of ownership, judgment which was cried out for in the fifth seal is rained down upon the persecuting world, and the forces of the Abyss itself are released upon it.  The interlude of the "mighty angel" with the small scroll (opened, no less) is somewhat enigmatic, but it seems to set forth what follows since it is said, "There will be no further delay."  What follows is the measuring of the temple which we are considering.  This is the establishment of the worship of the people of God on earth who were sealed and thus marked as the property of God before this all began.  And the elders respond "You have begun to reign."  This must first of all be seen as the establishment of the people of Israel with the cultus thereof for immediately we are presented with the figure of the woman "clothed with the sun, with the moon uner her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars."  This cannot fail to recall Joseph's dream to anyone who is familiar with the story.  In this dream the sun and moon and ELEVEN stars bow down to him.  The difference in eleven and twelve is due to the fact that in our passage Joseph is included so that it is a picture of all Israel.  And what happens with this woman?  She gives birth to a child who is snached up to heaven.  Does anyone doubt that this is a picture of Christ?  I could continue, but will leave off for now since my point was simply to set forth that the section regarding the measuring of the temple is one stage in the setting forth of the Heilsgeschichte.
                 
                gfsomsel
              • Chris Larimer
                I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms. Certainly in the
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                  I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms.  Certainly in the Ezekiel text there is a sincere desire that the glory of Solomon's temple be reinstituted.  Depending on your dating for the Apocalypse, you can see the desire for a new temple that recaptures the glory of the former (whether Herod's or, more likely, Solomon's) or (in my view) a reclamation of the Temple as a true house of worship to YHWH.  The city, likewise, is presented in a numerically perfect form and is described in aureate tones.  This shows that, like the temple - purged of fornication with the Beast (a corrupt Sadducean priesthood?) - the city is purged of her influences from Roman dominance.  Purified, there are only "dogs without".
                   
                  Chris Larimer
                  Research Assistant
                  Presbyterian Church (USA)
                  Office of Theology, Worship, & Discipleship
                  Congregational Ministries Division
                  100 Witherspoon Street
                  Louisville, KY 40202-1396
                   
                  Phone #: (502) 569-5343
                      Fax #: (502) 569-8060
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 11:07 AM
                  Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2

                  In a message dated 1/28/2004 10:13:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ed.Garcia@... writes:
                  I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could not/should not
                  be taken literally. I do not believe that this section in Rev. speaks of
                  a literal rebuilding of the temple. There is no real reason to claim
                  that it does.

                  But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                  the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                  please excuse my oversight. Thank you.
                  _______
                   
                  I'm not Ian, but will venture to speak regarding this.
                   
                  The measuring of the temple here as in Ezekiel 40 f. sets forth the idea of the construction of the temple.  It is, in itself, a kind of prophecy regarding its construction.  Prophecy should not, however, be understood simply in terms of fore-telling an event but rather as setting forth the event sub specie aeternitatis.  This is in this case particularly true.  Beginning with chapter 4 we have to do with the heavenly journey and what 'John' saw there.  The denouement of this is the opening of the seven-sealed book -- the Divine Book of Destiny.  Within this the opening of the seventh seal is particularly emphasized -- if nothing else due to the space allotted to recounting it.  The first six seals are but a prelude which is cursorily passed over -- the four horsemen detailing the misfortunes that ever beset humanity, the persecution of the righteous, and the cry for justice from the Divine Judge of all.  With the seventh seal we see the beginning of the Heilsgeschichte set forth.  The people of God are marked with a mark of ownership, judgment which was cried out for in the fifth seal is rained down upon the persecuting world, and the forces of the Abyss itself are released upon it.  The interlude of the "mighty angel" with the small scroll (opened, no less) is somewhat enigmatic, but it seems to set forth what follows since it is said, "There will be no further delay."  What follows is the measuring of the temple which we are considering.  This is the establishment of the worship of the people of God on earth who were sealed and thus marked as the property of God before this all began.  And the elders respond "You have begun to reign."  This must first of all be seen as the establishment of the people of Israel with the cultus thereof for immediately we are presented with the figure of the woman "clothed with the sun, with the moon uner her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars."  This can not fail to recall Joseph's dream to anyone who is familiar with the story.  In this dream the sun and moon and ELEVEN stars bow down to him.  The difference in eleven and twelve is due to the fact that in our passage Joseph is included so that it is a picture of all Israel.  And what happens with this woman?  She gives birth to a child who is snached up to heaven.  Does anyone doubt that this is a picture of Christ?  I could continue, but will leave off for now since my point was simply to set forth that the section regarding the measuring of the temple is one stage in the setting forth of the Heilsgeschichte.
                   
                  gfsomsel



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                • irbrown@andrews.edu
                  Having begun my major graduate research with looking at Rev 11:1-13 as a whole and not specifically the two witnesses, I have some familiarity with debates
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                    Having begun my major graduate research with looking at Rev 11:1-13 as a
                    whole and not specifically the two witnesses, I have some familiarity with
                    debates over elements of Rev 11:1-2. Most of the work that I did do with
                    these two verses centered on interpreting the temple language. The main
                    interpretations could be summarized as follows:

                    Primarily literal:
                    1) Temple language as relating to ancient earthly Jerusalem temple.
                    2) ... as relating to future, rebuilt earthly Jerusalem temple.
                    Primarily symbolic:
                    1) ... as representing the church in some sense.
                    2) ... as representing the Jewish people in some sense.
                    3) ... as representing the center of the Jewish religion in some sense.
                    Literal? Symbolic?
                    Temple language as relating to the heavenly temple that is portrayed
                    elsewhere in Revelation.

                    I wrote a rough paper critiquing the typical arguments used to support
                    those views labelled "Primarily symbolic." My conclusions about those
                    arguments were not very positive. I can send a cleaned up copy of the
                    concluding section of that paper upon request.

                    Personally, I favor the last alternative above. In part I do so because
                    of its serious consideration of how the author "John" speaks and uses
                    language *throughout* the book. At least two authors who speak to this
                    are Bachmann (?) and Giblin.

                    Perhaps a need in many of the discussions of Rev 11:1-2 is the need to
                    integrate that segment in with the content of chapter 10. The end of
                    chapter 10 focuses in on the participation of John within the visionary
                    experience; chapter 11:1 at least continues that focus. After that John
                    becomes less "explicit" within the visionary experience and his main role
                    as narrator/explainer resumes its dominance.

                    Ian R. Brown
                    Ph.D. Candidate
                    Andrews University
                  • polycarp66@aol.com
                    In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:41:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@pcusa.org writes: I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                      In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:41:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:
                      I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms.  Certainly in the Ezekiel text there is a sincere desire that the glory of Solomon's temple be reinstituted.  Depending on your dating for the Apocalypse, you can see the desire for a new temple that recaptures the glory of the former (whether Herod's or, more likely, Solomon's) or (in my view) a reclamation of the Temple as a true house of worship to YHWH.  The city, likewise, is presented in a numerically perfect form and is described in aureate tones.  This shows that, like the temple - purged of fornication with the Beast (a corrupt Sadducean priesthood?) - the city is purged of her influences from Roman dominance.  Purified, there are only "dogs without".
                      _________
                       
                      Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem, and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material -- a part of the Heilsgeschicte.
                       
                      I hear in my mind's ear someone asking, "What about the summons in chapter 4 which states that 'John' would be shown what was "about to happen."  This is a fair question.  This did seem somewhat troublesome when I began to consider the references as applying to things which had already occurred.  If this were the total of what is contained in this "Book of Destiny", it would be a most valid criticism.  I do hold, however, that there are matters in this "Seventh Seal" which are yet coming in the view of our author.  It is this to which the "about to happen" refers.  This involves the ongoing life of the New Jerusalem which is ever "coming down from God out of heaven" and never resides on earth.  This New Jerusalem is envisaged as covering the Roman Empire in its entirety (calculate the dimensions).  Most specifically this refers to the preaching of the word  and the administration of the sacraments.  The Church as the Bride says "Let everyone who is thirsty come to the water" and the congregation as "those who hear" in their turn say "Come."  This is that which is about to happen.
                       
                      gfsomsel
                    • Ron Snider
                      I would like a copy of the paper on Rev. 11:1-2. thanks in advance, ron snider
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                        I would like a copy of the paper on Rev. 11:1-2.

                        thanks in advance,

                        ron snider
                      • Chris Larimer
                        Thanks for your reply. First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings. Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                          Thanks for your reply.
                           
                          First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings.  Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly rebuilding of the Temple and a reinstitution of the Mosaic law/sacrificial system (which has been fulfilled in God's Christ). 

                          Secondly, I do not follow the three-fold division of the Revelation into the things "which you have seen, the things which are, and the things which are to come."  The Apocalypse is simply too non-lineal to support that view (otherwise, you would have at least five falls of Babylon between chapters 11-22).  Instead, I side with David Aune and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza in viewing the progressive action of the Apocalypse in successively more powerful symbolic systems.  My own division of the book as a whole is thus:
                           
                          Prologue and Epistolary Introduction (1:1-3:22)
                          Heavenly Throneroom Vision (4:1-11:18)
                          Cosmic War Vision (11:19-22:5)
                          Epilogue and Epistolary Ending (22:6-21)
                           
                          I see a definite spiraling of events (not parallelisms because the content "touches" too much) that is also chiastically structured.  The chiastic structure is also intentionally a reversal of the prehistoric claims held in the first 11 chapters of Genesis.  Notice that there is a movement away from cities in the Abrahamic cycle and a definite distrust of city life and established religious systems before the time of slavery in Egypt.  That pattern is what I am claiming is reversed (or, in my language, reclaimed for God's holy ones as a righteous way of life).  That's why I posit that the Heavenly City (which is the size of the Roman empire) and the Heavenly Temple (which is the size of Jerusalem, c. 70 AD) are figurative ways of saying that God's reign is extended into secular life (symbolized as the city) and religious life (temple).
                           
                          Chris Larimer
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 3:22 PM
                          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2

                          In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:41:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:
                          I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms.  Certainly in the Ezekiel text there is a sincere desire that the glory of Solomon's temple be reinstituted.  Depending on your dating for the Apocalypse, you can see the desire for a new temple that recaptures the glory of the former (whether Herod's or, more likely, Solomon's) or (in my view) a reclamation of the Temple as a true house of worship to YHWH.  The city, likewise, is presented in a numerically perfect form and is described in aureate tones.  This shows that, like the temple - purged of fornication with the Beast (a corrupt Sadducean priesthood?) - the city is purged of her influences from Roman dominance.  Purified, there are only "dogs without".
                          _________
                           
                          Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem, and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material -- a part of the Heilsgeschicte.
                           
                          I hear in my mind's ear someone asking, "What about the summons in chapter 4 which states that 'John' would be shown what was "about to happen."  This is a fair question.  This did seem somewhat troublesome when I began to consider the references as applying to things which had already occurred.  If this were the total of what is contained in this "Book of Destiny", it would be a most valid criticism.  I do hold, however, that there are matters in this "Seventh Seal" which are yet coming in the view of our author.  It is this to which the "about to happen" refers.  This involves the ongoing life of the New Jerusalem which is ever "coming down from God out of heaven" and never resides on earth.  This New Jerusalem is envisaged as covering the Roman Empire in its entirety (calculate the dimensions).  Most specifically this refers to the preaching of the word  and the administration of the sacraments.  The Church as the Bride says "Let everyone who is thirsty come to the water" and the congregation as "those who hear" in their turn say "Come."  This is that which is about to happen.
                           
                          gfsomsel
                        • Ian Paul
                          On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@aol.com wrote:   ... But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take the woman as
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                            On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:
                             
                            > Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you
                            > are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these
                            > forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there
                            > will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most
                            > emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to
                            > literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of
                            > the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem,
                            > and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal
                            > Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material --
                            > a part of the Heilsgeschicte.

                            But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take
                            the woman as being literally clothed with the sun?

                            Ian Paul
                            ___________________________
                            Revd Dr Ian Paul Associate Vicar, St Mary's Longfleet
                            32 Penn Hill Avenue Poole Dorset BH14 9LZ
                            01202 745963 Fax 01202 385539
                            Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
                            9HU
                            01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
                            http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
                          • polycarp66@aol.com
                            In a message dated 1/28/2004 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... __________ We divide it a bit differently. My overall structure of the book is 1.
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                              In a message dated 1/28/2004 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:



                              First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings.  Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly rebuilding of the Temple and a reinstitution of the Mosaic law/sacrificial system (which has been fulfilled in God's Christ). 

                              Secondly, I do not follow the three-fold division of the Revelation into the things "which you have seen, the things which are, and the things which are to come."  The Apocalypse is simply too non-lineal to support that view (otherwise, you would have at least five falls of Babylon between chapters 11-22).  Instead, I side with David Aune and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza in viewing the progressive action of the Apocalypse in successively more powerful symbolic systems.  My own division of the book as a whole is thus:

                              Prologue and Epistolary Introduction (1:1-3:22)
                              Heavenly Throneroom Vision (4:1-11:18)
                              Cosmic War Vision (11:19-22:5)
                              Epilogue and Epistolary Ending (22:6-21)


                              __________

                              We divide it a bit differently.  My overall structure of the book is

                              1. Superscription             1.1-3
                              2. Letter Proper             1.4-22.20
                                    2.1 Salutation             1.4-8
                                    2.2 Prophetic Call Report 1.9-3.22
                                    2.3 Heavenly Journey Report 4.1-22.20
                                    2.4 Closing Salutation      22.21

                              I consider the entire book to be in the form of a letter with a superscription which would be on the outside much as we would have a title on the spine of a book today.  The remainder is the letter proper. Note that the Letters to the Seven Churches are subsumed within the Prophetic Call Report which has a General and a Specific section which is not detailed here.  The Letters to the Seven Churches themselves are under the specific section.  Within the Heavenly Journey Report there is the Throne Room scene and the Report of the Opening of the Book of Destiny.  Under the opening category are the opening of each of the seven seals with an interlude for the sealing of God's people consisting of the 144,000 Israelites and the innumerable multitude of the Church.  In my view the Seventh Seal continues until 22.20 as a setting forth of the Heilsgeschichte. 

                              I too would probably most appropriately fit in the category of preterism though my views are much different from those of Grudem, e.g.  I do not hold to an early date for the writing of the Apocalypse.  As a matter of fact, I place it much later than is generally done.  I would say most certainly 135 AD.  (I'm sure someone will ask about this!)

                              gfsomsel
                            • polycarp66@aol.com
                              In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, editor@grovebooks.co.uk writes: ... But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, editor@... writes:
                                On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:
                                 
                                > Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you
                                > are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these
                                > forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there
                                > will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most
                                > emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to
                                > literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of
                                > the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem,
                                > and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal
                                > Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material --
                                > a part of the Heilsgeschicte.

                                But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take
                                the woman as being literally clothed with the sun?
                                _________________________
                                 
                                I never said that I took it as a literal number.  My understanding of the 144,000 is that it is a symbolic (??) number.  Its purpose is simply to indicate that there is a definite number from the tribes of Israel who are included in the people of God.  The reason for the definiteness of the number as opposed to the "great multitude which no man could number" which is used regarding the Church is that this number HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED whereas the Church was still a work in progress.  I take very little in the Apocalypse as being literally true.  No "Great Whore" rides on the back of a beast.  There is no literal beast from the sea or beast from the land.  Christ does not go forth riding on a horse to execute judgment.  These are all symbolic representations.  They stand for something else which is usually explained in some fashion or is evident if one has a knowledge of the author's sources, viz. the OT and NT and to some degree the apocalyptic literature.
                                 
                                gfsomsel
                              • Marko Jauhiainen
                                ... I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the measuring of the temple: http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html Shalom, Marko
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 29, 2004
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                                  Ed Garcia said the following on 28.01 2004 17:05:

                                  > But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                                  > the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                                  > please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

                                  I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the
                                  measuring of the temple:

                                  http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html

                                  Shalom,
                                  Marko
                                • Ed Garcia
                                  Thank you. I ll take a look. ... From: Marko Jauhiainen [mailto:marko.jauhiainen@tpu.fi] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:34 AM To:
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 29, 2004
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                                    Thank you. I'll take a look.

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Marko Jauhiainen [mailto:marko.jauhiainen@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:34 AM
                                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2




                                    Ed Garcia said the following on 28.01 2004 17:05:

                                    > But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                                    > the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                                    > please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

                                    I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the

                                    measuring of the temple:

                                    http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html

                                    Shalom,
                                    Marko



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