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rev. 11:1-2

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  • ronsnider1
    I am currently studying this book verse by verse from the original languages... I view the temple as the one that will be rebuilt for Daniel s 70th Week, the
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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      I am currently studying this book verse by verse from the original languages... I view the temple as the one
      that will be rebuilt for Daniel's 70th Week, the worshippers must be Jewish priests, and the time of Gentile
      domination will be the last half of DSW. Why the measurements, why omit the court of the Gentiles, etc?

      Any insight will be appreciated.

      Ron Snider
    • Ed Garcia
      What is DSW? Thanks. Ed Kansas ... From: ronsnider1 [mailto:ronpt@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 2:43 PM To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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        What is DSW? Thanks.

        Ed
        Kansas

        -----Original Message-----
        From: ronsnider1 [mailto:ronpt@...]
        Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 2:43 PM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2


        I am currently studying this book verse by verse from the original
        languages... I view the temple as the one that will be rebuilt for
        Daniel's 70th Week, the worshippers must be Jewish priests, and the time
        of Gentile domination will be the last half of DSW. Why the
        measurements, why omit the court of the Gentiles, etc?

        Any insight will be appreciated.

        Ron Snider





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      • RalphBass
        The purpose in measuring the temple of God (11:1) was to designate which part was for preservation. .to measure expresses the thought of preservation, not of
        Message 3 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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          The purpose in measuring the temple of God (11:1) was to designate which
          part was for preservation. ".to measure expresses the thought of
          preservation, not of destruction." Although the temple proper was rather
          small, the temple complex was quite large. It was the temple only,
          consisting of the holy place and the Holy of Holies, which is being
          symbolically measured for protection. And not only is the temple being
          measured but those that worship their are as well. As Carrington says, ".it
          can only represent the body of true believers who form the spiritual temple
          in which God dwells. . while the Outer Court will be the non-christian Jews
          who are 'given' into the power of the gentiles."

          This symbolic measuring is to determine who "measures up" by God's standard.
          In fact, the entire temple was destroyed, not just the court of the
          gentiles. However, God's people were not destroyed, they were delivered. The
          rest who did not "measure up" were destroyed. This measuring of the Temple
          "has to do with the building up of the spiritual temple of the true
          believers-that is to say, of the primitive Jerusalem church.. This inner
          circle within the old Israel is regarded by St. John as the true Israel
          recognized by God. The Outer Court, which is given over to the gentiles,
          symbolizes the other Jews who rejected Christ and are not being built into
          his spiritual temple." "The Naos [inner Temple], then, means the community
          of men in whom God dwells.."

          Compare this section, which follows the sixth trumpet with chapter 7:1-8,
          which follows the sixth seal. In chapter 7 we see the 144,000 marked for
          protection, here we see the true worshipers of God measured for protection
          by God. Both tell the same story in a cyclic fashion, one marking, and the
          other measuring.

          >From my coming book "Back To the Future - A Commentary on the Book of
          Revelation"
          Ralph E. Bass, Jr.



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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "ronsnider1" <ronpt@...>
          To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 3:43 PM
          Subject: **SPAM: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2


          > I am currently studying this book verse by verse from the original
          languages... I view the temple as the one
          > that will be rebuilt for Daniel's 70th Week, the worshippers must be
          Jewish priests, and the time of Gentile
          > domination will be the last half of DSW. Why the measurements, why omit
          the court of the Gentiles, etc?
          >
          > Any insight will be appreciated.
          >
          > Ron Snider
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/revelation-list/
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
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          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
        • Ron Snider
          Daniel s 70th Week. Ron Snider
          Message 4 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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            Daniel's 70th Week.

            Ron Snider
          • Duane Carbo
            DSW means Daniel s Seventieth Week . Measure the Temple would imply at the very least that there is a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is
            Message 5 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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              DSW means "Daniel's Seventieth Week". "Measure the Temple" would imply at
              the very least that there is
              a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is actual and not just
              symbolic. That John was told to
              "Rise and measure" implies that he saw then what is prophetically
              predetermined...the rebuilt temple and its
              worshipers.

              Duane Carbo
              Miami Florida


              At 02:47 PM 1/27/2004 -0600, you wrote:
              >What is DSW? Thanks.
              >
              >Ed
              >Kansas
              >
              >-----Original Message-----
              >From: ronsnider1 [mailto:ronpt@...]
              >Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 2:43 PM
              >To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2
              >
              >
              >I am currently studying this book verse by verse from the original
              >languages... I view the temple as the one that will be rebuilt for
              >Daniel's 70th Week, the worshippers must be Jewish priests, and the time
              >of Gentile domination will be the last half of DSW. Why the
              >measurements, why omit the court of the Gentiles, etc?
              >
              >Any insight will be appreciated.
              >
              >Ron Snider
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >To visit your group on the web, go to:
              >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/revelation-list/
              >
              >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
              >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/revelation-list/
              >
              >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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            • Timothy P. Jenney
              The book of Ezekiel contains an extensive description of a future temple, complete with exact measurements of its dimensions (Ezek. 40:1ff). John¹s original
              Message 6 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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                The book of Ezekiel contains an extensive description of a future temple,
                complete with exact measurements of its dimensions (Ezek. 40:1ff). John¹s
                original audience probably expected something similar here. John even
                receives a measuring rod (11:1), but he never uses it. In fact, the only
                measurements in the book are those of the New Jerusalem (Rev. 21:16, 17).
                They fall near the end of this book and they are measured with a different
                rod (Rev. 21: 15 cf. 11:1).

                John¹s vision does not duplicate Ezekiel¹s, but compliments it. Ezekiel
                prophesied about buildings, John prophesies about the worshippers which will
                use them (11:1 cf. chs. 7, 21, 22).

                The angel directs John¹s focus to the outer court that will be given to the
                Gentiles for ³42 months² (see 1,260 days, 42 months or 3 1/2 years, 12:6).
                There he sees two menorah [seven-pronged lampstands] (Exod. 25:31-36 cf.
                Zech. 4:1-14). On most occasions, it would be highly unusual to find
                lampstands in the outer court. The descriptions of the tabernacle and temple
                all place a single menorah in the Holy Place (Ex. 26:35; Num. 8:2-4; 2 Chr.
                4:20; Heb. 9:2), not two outside the building and in the outer court. The
                only time menorah appeared in the outer court was during the Feast of
                Tabernacles. Revelation links these menorahs to the feast by their fire
                [here, the power to destroy] (v. 5), their ability to withhold rain and
                their power to send plagues upon the earth (v. 6 cf. also Rev. 15:1;
                16:1-21). These are all found in Zechariah fourteen (vv. 12-19), which
                describes an eschatological celebration of Tabernacles, and was one of the
                traditional readings for the Feast of Tabernacles in the first century AD.


                (See my commentary on Revelation Pp. 1535-1629 in Life in the Spirit New
                Testament Commentary. Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2003) [Shameless
                self-promotion :-)]

                Timothy P. Jenney
                Winter Haven, FL

                > From: "ronsnider1" <ronpt@...>
                > Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2004 20:43:06 -0000
                > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2
                >
                > I am currently studying this book verse by verse from the original
                > languages... I view the temple as the one
                > that will be rebuilt for Daniel's 70th Week, the worshippers must be Jewish
                > priests, and the time of Gentile
                > domination will be the last half of DSW. Why the measurements, why omit the
                > court of the Gentiles, etc?
                >
                > Any insight will be appreciated.
                >
                > Ron Snider
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/revelation-list/
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • KennethGentry@cs.com
                In a message dated 1/27/04 4:08:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Daniel s Seventy Weeks. Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., M. Div., Th. M., Th. D.
                Message 7 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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                  In a message dated 1/27/04 4:08:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, Ed.Garcia@... writes:


                  What is DSW? Thanks.


                  Daniel's Seventy Weeks.

                  Kenneth L. Gentry, Jr., M. Div., Th. M., Th. D.
                  http://www.kennethgentry.com
                  New book available at KennethGentry.com:
                        Thine Is the Kingdom: Studies in the Postmillennial Hope

                  Research Professor in Theology
                        Christ College, Lynchburg, Virginia
                  Pastor, Fairview Presbyterian Church (est. 1786)
                        Fountain Inn, South Carolina
                                                                                      
                • Mail Cox
                  Dear Ron, The outer court is not included in the measurements because the text, along with Luke 21:24, states Jerusalem will be under the control of Gentiles,
                  Message 8 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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                    Dear Ron,

                    The outer court is not included in the measurements because the text, along
                    with Luke 21:24, states Jerusalem will be under the control of Gentiles,
                    especially during the final 42 months ... the 1260-day period when the Two
                    Anointed Prophets "stand before the God of earth
                    (Zech.4:11; Rev.11:4) ... until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
                    Mel


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "ronsnider1" <ronpt@...>
                    To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2004 3:43 PM
                    Subject: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2


                    > I am currently studying this book verse by verse from the original
                    languages... I view the temple as the one
                    > that will be rebuilt for Daniel's 70th Week, the worshippers must be
                    Jewish priests, and the time of Gentile
                    > domination will be the last half of DSW. Why the measurements, why omit
                    the court of the Gentiles, etc?
                    >
                    > Any insight will be appreciated.
                    >
                    > Ron Snider
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/revelation-list/
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • gfsomsel
                    I wouldn t agree that measuring the temple of God (11:1) was to designate which part was for preservation. The first time we encounter the concept of
                    Message 9 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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                      I wouldn't agree that measuring the temple of God (11:1) was to
                      designate which part was for preservation." The first time we
                      encounter the concept of measuring the temple is in Ezek 40 ff.
                      There it was most definitely NOT for preservation since the
                      destruction had already been accomplished. There the concept is
                      rather that of the re-establishment of the cultus. Similarly we
                      encounter a related concept in Exodus 25 when the construction of the
                      tabernacle was being enjoined. There it was to be
                      constructed "according to all that I show you concerning the pattern
                      [TABNIYT]of the tabernacle." What is here envisioned then is the
                      construction of the earthly temple on the basis of the heavenly
                      prototype.

                      George F. Somsel

                      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "RalphBass" <ralphbass@d...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > The purpose in measuring the temple of God (11:1) was to designate
                      which
                      > part was for preservation. ".to measure expresses the thought of
                      > preservation, not of destruction." Although the temple proper was
                      rather
                      > small, the temple complex was quite large. It was the temple only,
                      > consisting of the holy place and the Holy of Holies, which is being
                      > symbolically measured for protection. And not only is the temple
                      being
                      > measured but those that worship their are as well. As Carrington
                      says, ".it
                      > can only represent the body of true believers who form the
                      spiritual temple
                      > in which God dwells. . while the Outer Court will be the non-
                      christian Jews
                      > who are 'given' into the power of the gentiles."
                      >
                      > This symbolic measuring is to determine who "measures up" by God's
                      standard.
                      > In fact, the entire temple was destroyed, not just the court of the
                      > gentiles. However, God's people were not destroyed, they were
                      delivered. The
                      > rest who did not "measure up" were destroyed. This measuring of the
                      Temple
                      > "has to do with the building up of the spiritual temple of the true
                      > believers-that is to say, of the primitive Jerusalem church.. This
                      inner
                      > circle within the old Israel is regarded by St. John as the true
                      Israel
                      > recognized by God. The Outer Court, which is given over to the
                      gentiles,
                      > symbolizes the other Jews who rejected Christ and are not being
                      built into
                      > his spiritual temple." "The Naos [inner Temple], then, means the
                      community
                      > of men in whom God dwells.."
                      >
                      > Compare this section, which follows the sixth trumpet with chapter
                      7:1-8,
                      > which follows the sixth seal. In chapter 7 we see the 144,000
                      marked for
                      > protection, here we see the true worshipers of God measured for
                      protection
                      > by God. Both tell the same story in a cyclic fashion, one marking,
                      and the
                      > other measuring.
                      >
                      > >From my coming book "Back To the Future - A Commentary on the Book
                      of
                      > Revelation"
                      > Ralph E. Bass, Jr.
                    • Ron Snider
                      Actually, it is an abbreviation for Daniel s 70th Week. Ron Snider
                      Message 10 of 24 , Jan 27, 2004
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                        Actually, it is an abbreviation for Daniel's 70th Week.

                        Ron Snider
                      • Ian Paul
                        ... Why? Why should a command like this imply that the temple is literal? What would the command look like if it was symbolic , that is, metaphorical? When
                        Message 11 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                          On Tuesday, January 27, 2004, at 09:36 PM, Duane Carbo wrote:

                          > DSW means "Daniel's Seventieth Week". "Measure the Temple" would
                          > imply at
                          > the very least that there is
                          > a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is actual and not
                          > just
                          > symbolic.

                          Why?

                          Why should a command like this imply that the temple is literal? What
                          would the command look like if it was 'symbolic', that is,
                          metaphorical? When Jesus said 'A man went out to sow' does this imply
                          there was a literal man? Were there, or will there be, four literal
                          horses with four literal riders?

                          I wonder if I could make a plea, on this list at least, for reflective
                          engagement with the nature of metaphorical language...

                          Ian Paul
                          ___________________________
                          Revd Dr Ian Paul Associate Vicar, St Mary's Longfleet
                          32 Penn Hill Avenue Poole Dorset BH14 9LZ
                          01202 745963 Fax 01202 385539
                          Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
                          9HU
                          01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
                          http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
                        • Christian Maymann
                          Hi! I find, that there are some difficulties, with identifying the worshippers as “Jews priests”: i) The distinction between “Jewish” believers and
                          Message 12 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                            Hi!

                            I find, that there are some difficulties, with identifying the worshippers
                            as “Jews priests”:

                            i) The distinction between “Jewish” believers and “non-Jewish (gentile)”
                            believers is a question, that is uninteresting in relation to understand the
                            book of revelation, and – of cause – chapter 11.

                            ii) Then one reads the letters in the first part of the book, ones gets
                            the impression that the only true Jewish people, that exists, is the
                            Christians who worship Jesus – the Jewish messiah (That is the point of the
                            letter in 3:7-13)

                            iii) The two persons in the chapter is called “witness”, and that is the
                            category, that the book use for Christians in other part of the book (e.g
                            2:13)- so chapter 11 must relate to the church of christ, not particulary some
                            jewish worshippers


                            So the worshipper must be Christian worshippers – if they are jewish or not is
                            an un-interesting


                            Christian

                            Citat Ian Paul <editor@...>:

                            >
                            > On Tuesday, January 27, 2004, at 09:36 PM, Duane Carbo wrote:
                            >
                            > > DSW means "Daniel's Seventieth Week". "Measure the Temple" would
                            > > imply at
                            > > the very least that there is
                            > > a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is actual and not
                            > > just
                            > > symbolic.
                            >
                            > Why?
                            >
                            > Why should a command like this imply that the temple is literal? What
                            > would the command look like if it was 'symbolic', that is,
                            > metaphorical? When Jesus said 'A man went out to sow' does this imply
                            > there was a literal man? Were there, or will there be, four literal
                            > horses with four literal riders?
                            >
                            > I wonder if I could make a plea, on this list at least, for reflective
                            > engagement with the nature of metaphorical language...
                            >
                            > Ian Paul
                            > ___________________________
                            > Revd Dr Ian Paul Associate Vicar, St Mary's Longfleet
                            > 32 Penn Hill Avenue Poole Dorset BH14 9LZ
                            > 01202 745963 Fax 01202 385539
                            > Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
                            > 9HU
                            > 01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
                            > http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/revelation-list/
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Ed Garcia
                            I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could not/should not be taken literally. I do not believe that this section in Rev. speaks of a literal
                            Message 13 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                              I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could not/should not
                              be taken literally. I do not believe that this section in Rev. speaks of
                              a literal rebuilding of the temple. There is no real reason to claim
                              that it does.

                              But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                              the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                              please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

                              Ed G.

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Ian Paul [mailto:editor@...]
                              Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 3:23 AM
                              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2



                              On Tuesday, January 27, 2004, at 09:36 PM, Duane Carbo wrote:

                              > DSW means "Daniel's Seventieth Week". "Measure the Temple" would
                              > imply at
                              > the very least that there is
                              > a Temple standing during the tribulation (DSW) that is actual and not
                              > just
                              > symbolic.

                              Why?

                              Why should a command like this imply that the temple is literal? What
                              would the command look like if it was 'symbolic', that is,
                              metaphorical? When Jesus said 'A man went out to sow' does this imply
                              there was a literal man? Were there, or will there be, four literal
                              horses with four literal riders?

                              I wonder if I could make a plea, on this list at least, for reflective
                              engagement with the nature of metaphorical language...

                              Ian Paul
                              ___________________________
                              Revd Dr Ian Paul Associate Vicar, St Mary's Longfleet
                              32 Penn Hill Avenue Poole Dorset BH14 9LZ
                              01202 745963 Fax 01202 385539
                              Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
                              9HU
                              01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
                              http://www.grovebooks.co.uk





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                            • polycarp66@aol.com
                              In a message dated 1/28/2004 10:13:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ed.Garcia@fhlbtopeka.com writes: I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could
                              Message 14 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                In a message dated 1/28/2004 10:13:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ed.Garcia@... writes:
                                I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could not/should not
                                be taken literally. I do not believe that this section in Rev. speaks of
                                a literal rebuilding of the temple. There is no real reason to claim
                                that it does.

                                But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                                the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                                please excuse my oversight. Thank you.
                                _______
                                 
                                I'm not Ian, but will venture to speak regarding this.
                                 
                                The measuring of the temple here as in Ezekiel 40 f. sets forth the idea of the construction of the temple.  It is, in itself, a kind of prophecy regarding its construction.  Prophecy should not, however, be understood simply in terms of fore-telling an event but rather as setting forth the event sub specie aeternitatis.  This is in this case particularly true.  Beginning with chapter 4 we have to do with the heavenly journey and what 'John' saw there.  The denouement of this is the opening of the seven-sealed book -- the Divine Book of Destiny.  Within this the opening of the seventh seal is particularly emphasized -- if nothing else due to the space allotted to recounting it.  The first six seals are but a prelude which is cursorily passed over -- the four horsemen detailing the misfortunes that ever beset humanity, the persecution of the righteous, and the cry for justice from the Divine Judge of all.  With the seventh seal we see the beginning of the Heilsgeschichte set forth.  The people of God are marked with a mark of ownership, judgment which was cried out for in the fifth seal is rained down upon the persecuting world, and the forces of the Abyss itself are released upon it.  The interlude of the "mighty angel" with the small scroll (opened, no less) is somewhat enigmatic, but it seems to set forth what follows since it is said, "There will be no further delay."  What follows is the measuring of the temple which we are considering.  This is the establishment of the worship of the people of God on earth who were sealed and thus marked as the property of God before this all began.  And the elders respond "You have begun to reign."  This must first of all be seen as the establishment of the people of Israel with the cultus thereof for immediately we are presented with the figure of the woman "clothed with the sun, with the moon uner her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars."  This cannot fail to recall Joseph's dream to anyone who is familiar with the story.  In this dream the sun and moon and ELEVEN stars bow down to him.  The difference in eleven and twelve is due to the fact that in our passage Joseph is included so that it is a picture of all Israel.  And what happens with this woman?  She gives birth to a child who is snached up to heaven.  Does anyone doubt that this is a picture of Christ?  I could continue, but will leave off for now since my point was simply to set forth that the section regarding the measuring of the temple is one stage in the setting forth of the Heilsgeschichte.
                                 
                                gfsomsel
                              • Chris Larimer
                                I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms. Certainly in the
                                Message 15 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                  I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms.  Certainly in the Ezekiel text there is a sincere desire that the glory of Solomon's temple be reinstituted.  Depending on your dating for the Apocalypse, you can see the desire for a new temple that recaptures the glory of the former (whether Herod's or, more likely, Solomon's) or (in my view) a reclamation of the Temple as a true house of worship to YHWH.  The city, likewise, is presented in a numerically perfect form and is described in aureate tones.  This shows that, like the temple - purged of fornication with the Beast (a corrupt Sadducean priesthood?) - the city is purged of her influences from Roman dominance.  Purified, there are only "dogs without".
                                   
                                  Chris Larimer
                                  Research Assistant
                                  Presbyterian Church (USA)
                                  Office of Theology, Worship, & Discipleship
                                  Congregational Ministries Division
                                  100 Witherspoon Street
                                  Louisville, KY 40202-1396
                                   
                                  Phone #: (502) 569-5343
                                      Fax #: (502) 569-8060
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 11:07 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2

                                  In a message dated 1/28/2004 10:13:45 AM Eastern Standard Time, Ed.Garcia@... writes:
                                  I agree with you Ian, some sections of Revelation could not/should not
                                  be taken literally. I do not believe that this section in Rev. speaks of
                                  a literal rebuilding of the temple. There is no real reason to claim
                                  that it does.

                                  But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                                  the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                                  please excuse my oversight. Thank you.
                                  _______
                                   
                                  I'm not Ian, but will venture to speak regarding this.
                                   
                                  The measuring of the temple here as in Ezekiel 40 f. sets forth the idea of the construction of the temple.  It is, in itself, a kind of prophecy regarding its construction.  Prophecy should not, however, be understood simply in terms of fore-telling an event but rather as setting forth the event sub specie aeternitatis.  This is in this case particularly true.  Beginning with chapter 4 we have to do with the heavenly journey and what 'John' saw there.  The denouement of this is the opening of the seven-sealed book -- the Divine Book of Destiny.  Within this the opening of the seventh seal is particularly emphasized -- if nothing else due to the space allotted to recounting it.  The first six seals are but a prelude which is cursorily passed over -- the four horsemen detailing the misfortunes that ever beset humanity, the persecution of the righteous, and the cry for justice from the Divine Judge of all.  With the seventh seal we see the beginning of the Heilsgeschichte set forth.  The people of God are marked with a mark of ownership, judgment which was cried out for in the fifth seal is rained down upon the persecuting world, and the forces of the Abyss itself are released upon it.  The interlude of the "mighty angel" with the small scroll (opened, no less) is somewhat enigmatic, but it seems to set forth what follows since it is said, "There will be no further delay."  What follows is the measuring of the temple which we are considering.  This is the establishment of the worship of the people of God on earth who were sealed and thus marked as the property of God before this all began.  And the elders respond "You have begun to reign."  This must first of all be seen as the establishment of the people of Israel with the cultus thereof for immediately we are presented with the figure of the woman "clothed with the sun, with the moon uner her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars."  This can not fail to recall Joseph's dream to anyone who is familiar with the story.  In this dream the sun and moon and ELEVEN stars bow down to him.  The difference in eleven and twelve is due to the fact that in our passage Joseph is included so that it is a picture of all Israel.  And what happens with this woman?  She gives birth to a child who is snached up to heaven.  Does anyone doubt that this is a picture of Christ?  I could continue, but will leave off for now since my point was simply to set forth that the section regarding the measuring of the temple is one stage in the setting forth of the Heilsgeschichte.
                                   
                                  gfsomsel



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                                • irbrown@andrews.edu
                                  Having begun my major graduate research with looking at Rev 11:1-13 as a whole and not specifically the two witnesses, I have some familiarity with debates
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                    Having begun my major graduate research with looking at Rev 11:1-13 as a
                                    whole and not specifically the two witnesses, I have some familiarity with
                                    debates over elements of Rev 11:1-2. Most of the work that I did do with
                                    these two verses centered on interpreting the temple language. The main
                                    interpretations could be summarized as follows:

                                    Primarily literal:
                                    1) Temple language as relating to ancient earthly Jerusalem temple.
                                    2) ... as relating to future, rebuilt earthly Jerusalem temple.
                                    Primarily symbolic:
                                    1) ... as representing the church in some sense.
                                    2) ... as representing the Jewish people in some sense.
                                    3) ... as representing the center of the Jewish religion in some sense.
                                    Literal? Symbolic?
                                    Temple language as relating to the heavenly temple that is portrayed
                                    elsewhere in Revelation.

                                    I wrote a rough paper critiquing the typical arguments used to support
                                    those views labelled "Primarily symbolic." My conclusions about those
                                    arguments were not very positive. I can send a cleaned up copy of the
                                    concluding section of that paper upon request.

                                    Personally, I favor the last alternative above. In part I do so because
                                    of its serious consideration of how the author "John" speaks and uses
                                    language *throughout* the book. At least two authors who speak to this
                                    are Bachmann (?) and Giblin.

                                    Perhaps a need in many of the discussions of Rev 11:1-2 is the need to
                                    integrate that segment in with the content of chapter 10. The end of
                                    chapter 10 focuses in on the participation of John within the visionary
                                    experience; chapter 11:1 at least continues that focus. After that John
                                    becomes less "explicit" within the visionary experience and his main role
                                    as narrator/explainer resumes its dominance.

                                    Ian R. Brown
                                    Ph.D. Candidate
                                    Andrews University
                                  • polycarp66@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:41:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@pcusa.org writes: I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                      In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:41:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:
                                      I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms.  Certainly in the Ezekiel text there is a sincere desire that the glory of Solomon's temple be reinstituted.  Depending on your dating for the Apocalypse, you can see the desire for a new temple that recaptures the glory of the former (whether Herod's or, more likely, Solomon's) or (in my view) a reclamation of the Temple as a true house of worship to YHWH.  The city, likewise, is presented in a numerically perfect form and is described in aureate tones.  This shows that, like the temple - purged of fornication with the Beast (a corrupt Sadducean priesthood?) - the city is purged of her influences from Roman dominance.  Purified, there are only "dogs without".
                                      _________
                                       
                                      Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem, and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material -- a part of the Heilsgeschicte.
                                       
                                      I hear in my mind's ear someone asking, "What about the summons in chapter 4 which states that 'John' would be shown what was "about to happen."  This is a fair question.  This did seem somewhat troublesome when I began to consider the references as applying to things which had already occurred.  If this were the total of what is contained in this "Book of Destiny", it would be a most valid criticism.  I do hold, however, that there are matters in this "Seventh Seal" which are yet coming in the view of our author.  It is this to which the "about to happen" refers.  This involves the ongoing life of the New Jerusalem which is ever "coming down from God out of heaven" and never resides on earth.  This New Jerusalem is envisaged as covering the Roman Empire in its entirety (calculate the dimensions).  Most specifically this refers to the preaching of the word  and the administration of the sacraments.  The Church as the Bride says "Let everyone who is thirsty come to the water" and the congregation as "those who hear" in their turn say "Come."  This is that which is about to happen.
                                       
                                      gfsomsel
                                    • Ron Snider
                                      I would like a copy of the paper on Rev. 11:1-2. thanks in advance, ron snider
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                        I would like a copy of the paper on Rev. 11:1-2.

                                        thanks in advance,

                                        ron snider
                                      • Chris Larimer
                                        Thanks for your reply. First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings. Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                          Thanks for your reply.
                                           
                                          First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings.  Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly rebuilding of the Temple and a reinstitution of the Mosaic law/sacrificial system (which has been fulfilled in God's Christ). 

                                          Secondly, I do not follow the three-fold division of the Revelation into the things "which you have seen, the things which are, and the things which are to come."  The Apocalypse is simply too non-lineal to support that view (otherwise, you would have at least five falls of Babylon between chapters 11-22).  Instead, I side with David Aune and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza in viewing the progressive action of the Apocalypse in successively more powerful symbolic systems.  My own division of the book as a whole is thus:
                                           
                                          Prologue and Epistolary Introduction (1:1-3:22)
                                          Heavenly Throneroom Vision (4:1-11:18)
                                          Cosmic War Vision (11:19-22:5)
                                          Epilogue and Epistolary Ending (22:6-21)
                                           
                                          I see a definite spiraling of events (not parallelisms because the content "touches" too much) that is also chiastically structured.  The chiastic structure is also intentionally a reversal of the prehistoric claims held in the first 11 chapters of Genesis.  Notice that there is a movement away from cities in the Abrahamic cycle and a definite distrust of city life and established religious systems before the time of slavery in Egypt.  That pattern is what I am claiming is reversed (or, in my language, reclaimed for God's holy ones as a righteous way of life).  That's why I posit that the Heavenly City (which is the size of the Roman empire) and the Heavenly Temple (which is the size of Jerusalem, c. 70 AD) are figurative ways of saying that God's reign is extended into secular life (symbolized as the city) and religious life (temple).
                                           
                                          Chris Larimer
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 3:22 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2

                                          In a message dated 1/28/2004 2:41:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:
                                          I also think that there is at least some merit to the thesis that the new Temple and the New Jerusalem portray a reclamation of these forms.  Certainly in the Ezekiel text there is a sincere desire that the glory of Solomon's temple be reinstituted.  Depending on your dating for the Apocalypse, you can see the desire for a new temple that recaptures the glory of the former (whether Herod's or, more likely, Solomon's) or (in my view) a reclamation of the Temple as a true house of worship to YHWH.  The city, likewise, is presented in a numerically perfect form and is described in aureate tones.  This shows that, like the temple - purged of fornication with the Beast (a corrupt Sadducean priesthood?) - the city is purged of her influences from Roman dominance.  Purified, there are only "dogs without".
                                          _________
                                           
                                          Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem, and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material -- a part of the Heilsgeschicte.
                                           
                                          I hear in my mind's ear someone asking, "What about the summons in chapter 4 which states that 'John' would be shown what was "about to happen."  This is a fair question.  This did seem somewhat troublesome when I began to consider the references as applying to things which had already occurred.  If this were the total of what is contained in this "Book of Destiny", it would be a most valid criticism.  I do hold, however, that there are matters in this "Seventh Seal" which are yet coming in the view of our author.  It is this to which the "about to happen" refers.  This involves the ongoing life of the New Jerusalem which is ever "coming down from God out of heaven" and never resides on earth.  This New Jerusalem is envisaged as covering the Roman Empire in its entirety (calculate the dimensions).  Most specifically this refers to the preaching of the word  and the administration of the sacraments.  The Church as the Bride says "Let everyone who is thirsty come to the water" and the congregation as "those who hear" in their turn say "Come."  This is that which is about to happen.
                                           
                                          gfsomsel
                                        • Ian Paul
                                          On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@aol.com wrote:   ... But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take the woman as
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                            On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:
                                             
                                            > Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you
                                            > are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these
                                            > forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there
                                            > will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most
                                            > emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to
                                            > literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of
                                            > the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem,
                                            > and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal
                                            > Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material --
                                            > a part of the Heilsgeschicte.

                                            But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take
                                            the woman as being literally clothed with the sun?

                                            Ian Paul
                                            ___________________________
                                            Revd Dr Ian Paul Associate Vicar, St Mary's Longfleet
                                            32 Penn Hill Avenue Poole Dorset BH14 9LZ
                                            01202 745963 Fax 01202 385539
                                            Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd Ridley Hall Road Cambridge CB3
                                            9HU
                                            01223 464748 Fax 01223 464849
                                            http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
                                          • polycarp66@aol.com
                                            In a message dated 1/28/2004 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... __________ We divide it a bit differently. My overall structure of the book is 1.
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                              In a message dated 1/28/2004 8:08:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, chris.larimer@... writes:



                                              First, I am preterist and post-millennial in my leanings.  Therefore, I am not given to interpretations that focus on an earthly rebuilding of the Temple and a reinstitution of the Mosaic law/sacrificial system (which has been fulfilled in God's Christ). 

                                              Secondly, I do not follow the three-fold division of the Revelation into the things "which you have seen, the things which are, and the things which are to come."  The Apocalypse is simply too non-lineal to support that view (otherwise, you would have at least five falls of Babylon between chapters 11-22).  Instead, I side with David Aune and Elizabeth Schussler Fiorenza in viewing the progressive action of the Apocalypse in successively more powerful symbolic systems.  My own division of the book as a whole is thus:

                                              Prologue and Epistolary Introduction (1:1-3:22)
                                              Heavenly Throneroom Vision (4:1-11:18)
                                              Cosmic War Vision (11:19-22:5)
                                              Epilogue and Epistolary Ending (22:6-21)


                                              __________

                                              We divide it a bit differently.  My overall structure of the book is

                                              1. Superscription             1.1-3
                                              2. Letter Proper             1.4-22.20
                                                    2.1 Salutation             1.4-8
                                                    2.2 Prophetic Call Report 1.9-3.22
                                                    2.3 Heavenly Journey Report 4.1-22.20
                                                    2.4 Closing Salutation      22.21

                                              I consider the entire book to be in the form of a letter with a superscription which would be on the outside much as we would have a title on the spine of a book today.  The remainder is the letter proper. Note that the Letters to the Seven Churches are subsumed within the Prophetic Call Report which has a General and a Specific section which is not detailed here.  The Letters to the Seven Churches themselves are under the specific section.  Within the Heavenly Journey Report there is the Throne Room scene and the Report of the Opening of the Book of Destiny.  Under the opening category are the opening of each of the seven seals with an interlude for the sealing of God's people consisting of the 144,000 Israelites and the innumerable multitude of the Church.  In my view the Seventh Seal continues until 22.20 as a setting forth of the Heilsgeschichte. 

                                              I too would probably most appropriately fit in the category of preterism though my views are much different from those of Grudem, e.g.  I do not hold to an early date for the writing of the Apocalypse.  As a matter of fact, I place it much later than is generally done.  I would say most certainly 135 AD.  (I'm sure someone will ask about this!)

                                              gfsomsel
                                            • polycarp66@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, editor@grovebooks.co.uk writes: ... But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Jan 28, 2004
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                                                In a message dated 1/28/2004 11:02:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, editor@... writes:
                                                On Wednesday, January 28, 2004, at 08:22 PM, polycarp66@... wrote:
                                                 
                                                > Since you are replying to what I had written, I must assume that you
                                                > are understanding what I said to refer to a "reclamation of these
                                                > forms."  I am well aware that there are those who maintain that there
                                                > will be a rebuilding of the temple in Jerusalem.  This is most
                                                > emphatically not my position.  Rather, I take the 144,000 to refer to
                                                > literal members of the nation of Israel / Judea, the measuring of
                                                > the temple to refer to the historical temple once built in Jerusalem,
                                                > and the woman with the sun, moon and stars to refer to the literal
                                                > Israel from whom Christ was born.  This is all historical material --
                                                > a part of the Heilsgeschicte.

                                                But if you take the 144,000 as a literal number, why do you not take
                                                the woman as being literally clothed with the sun?
                                                _________________________
                                                 
                                                I never said that I took it as a literal number.  My understanding of the 144,000 is that it is a symbolic (??) number.  Its purpose is simply to indicate that there is a definite number from the tribes of Israel who are included in the people of God.  The reason for the definiteness of the number as opposed to the "great multitude which no man could number" which is used regarding the Church is that this number HAD ALREADY BEEN COMPLETED whereas the Church was still a work in progress.  I take very little in the Apocalypse as being literally true.  No "Great Whore" rides on the back of a beast.  There is no literal beast from the sea or beast from the land.  Christ does not go forth riding on a horse to execute judgment.  These are all symbolic representations.  They stand for something else which is usually explained in some fashion or is evident if one has a knowledge of the author's sources, viz. the OT and NT and to some degree the apocalyptic literature.
                                                 
                                                gfsomsel
                                              • Marko Jauhiainen
                                                ... I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the measuring of the temple: http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html Shalom, Marko
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Jan 29, 2004
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                                                  Ed Garcia said the following on 28.01 2004 17:05:

                                                  > But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                                                  > the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                                                  > please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

                                                  I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the
                                                  measuring of the temple:

                                                  http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html

                                                  Shalom,
                                                  Marko
                                                • Ed Garcia
                                                  Thank you. I ll take a look. ... From: Marko Jauhiainen [mailto:marko.jauhiainen@tpu.fi] Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:34 AM To:
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Jan 29, 2004
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                                                    Thank you. I'll take a look.

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Marko Jauhiainen [mailto:marko.jauhiainen@...]
                                                    Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 2:34 AM
                                                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [revelation-list] rev. 11:1-2




                                                    Ed Garcia said the following on 28.01 2004 17:05:

                                                    > But Ian, if you have the time, how do you understand the measuring of
                                                    > the temple? If you have commented on this passage previously, then
                                                    > please excuse my oversight. Thank you.

                                                    I am not Ian, either, but I would like to point you to an article on the

                                                    measuring of the temple:

                                                    http://www.bsw.org/?l=71831&a=Comm16.html

                                                    Shalom,
                                                    Marko



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