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Re: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?

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  • Greg Clarke
    The sea in Rev 21:1 I have always taken as symbolic in general of the source of evil being removed. But regarding another water symbol, does anyone see any
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 13, 2003
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      Re: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea? The sea in Rev 21:1 I have always taken as symbolic in general of the source of evil being removed. But regarding another water symbol, does anyone see any connection between the sea surrounding the throne in 4:6 and the 'new sea' in Rev 22:1, which flows from the throne into the city rather than just surrounding the throne. Can any interpretive weight be given to such a symbolic shift or 'development'?

      Greg



      --
      Dr G.J. Clarke
      Director, Centre for Apologetic Scholarship and Education (CASE)
      New College
      University of New South Wales
      Sydney NSW 2052
      Ph. (61 2) 9381 1730
      Fax. (61 2) 9381 1909
      Email. g.clarke@...
      www.newcollege.unsw.edu.au/case.php



      From: "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg@...>
      Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:50:32 +0200
      To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


      Why is it convincing? What are her arguments?

      Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: Newell, Terry-Michael [mailto:newell@...]
      Sendt: 12. september 2003 17.19
      Til: 'revelation-list@yahoogroups.com'
      Emne: RE: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


      Barbara R. Rossing in "The Choice between Two Cities: Whore, Bride, and Empire in the Apocalypse" gives a convincing argument that the disappearance of the sea represents a "contrast between the political economies of New Jerusalem and Babylon."  The 'sea' represents the shipping economy of Babylon or in her words,  the "location of evil."  The alternative presented in the Apocalypse is "an economy that provides the essentials of life 'without payment.'" (cf. Rev. 21:6; 22:17)

      See Rossing, pp. 145-146.

      Thanks,
      Terry-Michael Newell
      Campbell University
      Buies Creek, NC
      USA

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Timothy P. Jenney [mailto:drjenney@...]
      Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:31 AM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?

      Can anyone out there suggest a plausible reason for Rev. 21:1 "and the sea
      was no more"?

      Thanks in advance,

      Timothy P. Jenney

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    • Don K
      Re: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?Greg, I have personally taken the sea of the earlier chapter to represent the Old Covenant Temple
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 13, 2003
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        Re: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?
        Greg,  I have personally taken the "sea" of the earlier chapter to represent the Old Covenant Temple imagery, for as all know, there was a huge brass "sea" standing in front of the temple. The priests had to wash there, and use the water as purification for entrance into the Temple. If this imagery stands behind the vision, then the removal of that sea would represent, like the removal of the veil, a removal of the hindrances between man and God. Thus, instead of the impeneterrable forbidding sea standing before the Throne, there is a river of life flowing from the Throne to all men.
        Just my thoughts
        Don K
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 2:12 AM
        Subject: Re: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?

        The sea in Rev 21:1 I have always taken as symbolic in general of the source of evil being removed. But regarding another water symbol, does anyone see any connection between the sea surrounding the throne in 4:6 and the 'new sea' in Rev 22:1, which flows from the throne into the city rather than just surrounding the throne. Can any interpretive weight be given to such a symbolic shift or 'development'?

        Greg



        --
        Dr G.J. Clarke
        Director, Centre for Apologetic Scholarship and Education (CASE)
        New College
        University of New South Wales
        Sydney NSW 2052
        Ph. (61 2) 9381 1730
        Fax. (61 2) 9381 1909
        Email. g.clarke@...
        www.newcollege.unsw.edu.au/case.php



        From: "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg@...>
        Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:50:32 +0200
        To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


        Why is it convincing? What are her arguments?

        Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        Fra: Newell, Terry-Michael [mailto:newell@...]
        Sendt: 12. september 2003 17.19
        Til: 'revelation-list@yahoogroups.com'
        Emne: RE: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


        Barbara R. Rossing in "The Choice between Two Cities: Whore, Bride, and Empire in the Apocalypse" gives a convincing argument that the disappearance of the sea represents a "contrast between the political economies of New Jerusalem and Babylon."  The 'sea' represents the shipping economy of Babylon or in her words,  the "location of evil."  The alternative presented in the Apocalypse is "an economy that provides the essentials of life 'without payment.'" (cf. Rev. 21:6; 22:17)

        See Rossing, pp. 145-146.

        Thanks,
        Terry-Michael Newell
        Campbell University
        Buies Creek, NC
        USA

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Timothy P. Jenney [mailto:drjenney@...]
        Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:31 AM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?

        Can anyone out there suggest a plausible reason for Rev. 21:1 "and the sea
        was no more"?

        Thanks in advance,

        Timothy P. Jenney

        ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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        http://us.click.yahoo.com/l.m7sD/LIdGAA/qnsNAA/J2VolB/TM
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      • Dave Mathewson
        In a forthcoming article to be published this Fall in Trinity Journal I sugget that Rev 21.1c has a significant background in New Exodus imagery such as found
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 15, 2003
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          In a forthcoming article to be published this Fall in Trinity Journal I
          sugget that Rev 21.1c has a significant background in New Exodus imagery
          such as found in Isa 51.9-10 (which merges mythical and Exodus imagery);
          Zech 10.10-12 and several other OT texts (Psalms; cf. also Lev. R. 27.4). I
          have argued this point in more summary fashion in my recent A New Heaven and
          a New Earth: The Meaning and Function of the OT in Revelation 21.1-22.5
          (Sheffield), pp. 65-68.

          Dave Mathewson


          >From: "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
          >Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          >To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?
          >Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:30:33 -0400
          >
          >
          >Can anyone out there suggest a plausible reason for Rev. 21:1 "and the sea
          >was no more"?
          >
          >Thanks in advance,
          >
          >Timothy P. Jenney
          >

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        • Ramsey Michaels
          The sea seems to be equivalent to Death and Hades. There seems to be a chiasm: a. The sea gave up the dead that were in it (20:13a) b. Death and Hades gave
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 15, 2003
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            The "sea" seems to be equivalent to "Death and Hades."

            There seems to be a chiasm:

            a. The sea gave up the dead that were in it (20:13a)
            b. Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them (20:13b).
            b'. Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire (20:14).
            a'. There was no more sea (21:1).

            The old earth and sky are gone already in 21:11, but the sea has to stay
            around long enough to give up its dead. Then it too, is gone, but there is
            no "new" sea to correspond to the new sky and earth because the sea, like
            the grave, is a realm of death. Unlike Death and Hades, it can hardly be
            said to be cast into the lake of fire, for this would sound incongruous
            (Would the sea put the fire out? :-). So the author contents himself with
            just saying, "There was no more sea."

            By the way, check out Rudyard Kipling's poem, "The Last Chantey."

            Ramsey Michaels
          • Ariel Alvarez Valdes
            In Rev 21:5, the One who was seated on the throne says to John: Write this down”. Does anyone know what John have to write? Are God’s words referred to
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 16, 2003
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              In Rev 21:5, the One who was seated on the throne says
              to John: "Write this down”.
              Does anyone know what John have to write? Are God’s
              words referred to the hole book of Revelation, or only
              vv.1-4, or even to the next words “these words are
              trustworthy and true”?
              What does the authors say?
              Than you

              Ariel Alvarez Valdés


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