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Re: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?

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  • Ranko Stefanovic
    In my REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST (published by Andrews University Press, 1992) I suggest that -- apart the metaphorical meaning of the word sea in Rev 21:1 --
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 12, 2003
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      In my REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST (published by Andrews University Press,
      1992) I suggest that -- apart the metaphorical meaning of the word sea in
      Rev 21:1 -- the statement might reflect John's own experience on Patmos (it
      is not any sea but "the sea" in Greek). John did not see his own sea; it
      meant to him the absence of all that caused him suffer while on Patmos (cf.
      21:4).

      Ranko Stefanovic
      Professor of New Testament
      Department of Religion and Biblical Languages
      Andrews University
      rstefano@...
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
      To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 8:30 AM
      Subject: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


      >
      > Can anyone out there suggest a plausible reason for Rev. 21:1 "and the sea
      > was no more"?
      >
      > Thanks in advance,
      >
      > Timothy P. Jenney
      >
      >
      >
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      > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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    • Georg S. Adamsen
      RE: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?Why is it convincing? What are her arguments? Dr. Georg S. Adamsen ... Fra: Newell, Terry-Michael
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 12, 2003
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        RE: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?
        Why is it convincing? What are her arguments?
         
        Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        Fra: Newell, Terry-Michael [mailto:newell@...]
        Sendt: 12. september 2003 17.19
        Til: 'revelation-list@yahoogroups.com'
        Emne: RE: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?

        Barbara R. Rossing in "The Choice between Two Cities: Whore, Bride, and Empire in the Apocalypse" gives a convincing argument that the disappearance of the sea represents a "contrast between the political economies of New Jerusalem and Babylon."  The 'sea' represents the shipping economy of Babylon or in her words,  the "location of evil."  The alternative presented in the Apocalypse is "an economy that provides the essentials of life 'without payment.'" (cf. Rev. 21:6; 22:17)

        See Rossing, pp. 145-146.

        Thanks,
        Terry-Michael Newell
        Campbell University
        Buies Creek, NC
        USA

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Timothy P. Jenney [mailto:drjenney@...]
        Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:31 AM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


        Can anyone out there suggest a plausible reason for Rev. 21:1 "and the sea
        was no more"?

        Thanks in advance,

        Timothy P. Jenney


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      • Greg Clarke
        The sea in Rev 21:1 I have always taken as symbolic in general of the source of evil being removed. But regarding another water symbol, does anyone see any
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 13, 2003
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          Re: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea? The sea in Rev 21:1 I have always taken as symbolic in general of the source of evil being removed. But regarding another water symbol, does anyone see any connection between the sea surrounding the throne in 4:6 and the 'new sea' in Rev 22:1, which flows from the throne into the city rather than just surrounding the throne. Can any interpretive weight be given to such a symbolic shift or 'development'?

          Greg



          --
          Dr G.J. Clarke
          Director, Centre for Apologetic Scholarship and Education (CASE)
          New College
          University of New South Wales
          Sydney NSW 2052
          Ph. (61 2) 9381 1730
          Fax. (61 2) 9381 1909
          Email. g.clarke@...
          www.newcollege.unsw.edu.au/case.php



          From: "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg@...>
          Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:50:32 +0200
          To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


          Why is it convincing? What are her arguments?

          Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: Newell, Terry-Michael [mailto:newell@...]
          Sendt: 12. september 2003 17.19
          Til: 'revelation-list@yahoogroups.com'
          Emne: RE: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


          Barbara R. Rossing in "The Choice between Two Cities: Whore, Bride, and Empire in the Apocalypse" gives a convincing argument that the disappearance of the sea represents a "contrast between the political economies of New Jerusalem and Babylon."  The 'sea' represents the shipping economy of Babylon or in her words,  the "location of evil."  The alternative presented in the Apocalypse is "an economy that provides the essentials of life 'without payment.'" (cf. Rev. 21:6; 22:17)

          See Rossing, pp. 145-146.

          Thanks,
          Terry-Michael Newell
          Campbell University
          Buies Creek, NC
          USA

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Timothy P. Jenney [mailto:drjenney@...]
          Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:31 AM
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?

          Can anyone out there suggest a plausible reason for Rev. 21:1 "and the sea
          was no more"?

          Thanks in advance,

          Timothy P. Jenney

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        • Don K
          Re: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?Greg, I have personally taken the sea of the earlier chapter to represent the Old Covenant Temple
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 13, 2003
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            Re: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?
            Greg,  I have personally taken the "sea" of the earlier chapter to represent the Old Covenant Temple imagery, for as all know, there was a huge brass "sea" standing in front of the temple. The priests had to wash there, and use the water as purification for entrance into the Temple. If this imagery stands behind the vision, then the removal of that sea would represent, like the removal of the veil, a removal of the hindrances between man and God. Thus, instead of the impeneterrable forbidding sea standing before the Throne, there is a river of life flowing from the Throne to all men.
            Just my thoughts
            Don K
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, September 13, 2003 2:12 AM
            Subject: Re: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?

            The sea in Rev 21:1 I have always taken as symbolic in general of the source of evil being removed. But regarding another water symbol, does anyone see any connection between the sea surrounding the throne in 4:6 and the 'new sea' in Rev 22:1, which flows from the throne into the city rather than just surrounding the throne. Can any interpretive weight be given to such a symbolic shift or 'development'?

            Greg



            --
            Dr G.J. Clarke
            Director, Centre for Apologetic Scholarship and Education (CASE)
            New College
            University of New South Wales
            Sydney NSW 2052
            Ph. (61 2) 9381 1730
            Fax. (61 2) 9381 1909
            Email. g.clarke@...
            www.newcollege.unsw.edu.au/case.php



            From: "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg@...>
            Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 01:50:32 +0200
            To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: SV: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


            Why is it convincing? What are her arguments?

            Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: Newell, Terry-Michael [mailto:newell@...]
            Sendt: 12. september 2003 17.19
            Til: 'revelation-list@yahoogroups.com'
            Emne: RE: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?


            Barbara R. Rossing in "The Choice between Two Cities: Whore, Bride, and Empire in the Apocalypse" gives a convincing argument that the disappearance of the sea represents a "contrast between the political economies of New Jerusalem and Babylon."  The 'sea' represents the shipping economy of Babylon or in her words,  the "location of evil."  The alternative presented in the Apocalypse is "an economy that provides the essentials of life 'without payment.'" (cf. Rev. 21:6; 22:17)

            See Rossing, pp. 145-146.

            Thanks,
            Terry-Michael Newell
            Campbell University
            Buies Creek, NC
            USA

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Timothy P. Jenney [mailto:drjenney@...]
            Sent: Friday, September 12, 2003 9:31 AM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?

            Can anyone out there suggest a plausible reason for Rev. 21:1 "and the sea
            was no more"?

            Thanks in advance,

            Timothy P. Jenney

            ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~-->
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          • Dave Mathewson
            In a forthcoming article to be published this Fall in Trinity Journal I sugget that Rev 21.1c has a significant background in New Exodus imagery such as found
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 15, 2003
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              In a forthcoming article to be published this Fall in Trinity Journal I
              sugget that Rev 21.1c has a significant background in New Exodus imagery
              such as found in Isa 51.9-10 (which merges mythical and Exodus imagery);
              Zech 10.10-12 and several other OT texts (Psalms; cf. also Lev. R. 27.4). I
              have argued this point in more summary fashion in my recent A New Heaven and
              a New Earth: The Meaning and Function of the OT in Revelation 21.1-22.5
              (Sheffield), pp. 65-68.

              Dave Mathewson


              >From: "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
              >Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              >To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
              >Subject: [revelation-list] [Rev. List]: No More Sea?
              >Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 09:30:33 -0400
              >
              >
              >Can anyone out there suggest a plausible reason for Rev. 21:1 "and the sea
              >was no more"?
              >
              >Thanks in advance,
              >
              >Timothy P. Jenney
              >

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            • Ramsey Michaels
              The sea seems to be equivalent to Death and Hades. There seems to be a chiasm: a. The sea gave up the dead that were in it (20:13a) b. Death and Hades gave
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 15, 2003
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                The "sea" seems to be equivalent to "Death and Hades."

                There seems to be a chiasm:

                a. The sea gave up the dead that were in it (20:13a)
                b. Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them (20:13b).
                b'. Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire (20:14).
                a'. There was no more sea (21:1).

                The old earth and sky are gone already in 21:11, but the sea has to stay
                around long enough to give up its dead. Then it too, is gone, but there is
                no "new" sea to correspond to the new sky and earth because the sea, like
                the grave, is a realm of death. Unlike Death and Hades, it can hardly be
                said to be cast into the lake of fire, for this would sound incongruous
                (Would the sea put the fire out? :-). So the author contents himself with
                just saying, "There was no more sea."

                By the way, check out Rudyard Kipling's poem, "The Last Chantey."

                Ramsey Michaels
              • Ariel Alvarez Valdes
                In Rev 21:5, the One who was seated on the throne says to John: Write this down”. Does anyone know what John have to write? Are God’s words referred to
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 16, 2003
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                  In Rev 21:5, the One who was seated on the throne says
                  to John: "Write this down”.
                  Does anyone know what John have to write? Are God’s
                  words referred to the hole book of Revelation, or only
                  vv.1-4, or even to the next words “these words are
                  trustworthy and true”?
                  What does the authors say?
                  Than you

                  Ariel Alvarez Valdés


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