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  • Alan Fuller
    1. The Revelation may represent several things, but one thing it surely describes is the end of the world. Whether this represents the end of Rome, the end of
    Message 1 of 6 , Aug 28, 2003
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      1. The Revelation may represent several things, but one thing it
      surely describes is the end of the world. Whether this represents
      the end of Rome, the end of a dispensation or the the literal end of
      the world we may not agree on, but it does use allusions to similar
      catastrophes in the Old Testament. I would like to look at
      Revelation in light of the flood in the Old Testament in order to
      gain a better understanding of Revelation.

      I find what sounds like world ending language in several places in
      Revelation, chapters six, eleven, fourteen, sixteen, nineteen, and
      twenty. Perhaps the fact that the world seems to end over and over
      is one thing that makes Revelation so confusing.

      2. The first end of the world was by flood (2Pe3:6, Ge 7:10-2). God
      sent the flood because of great evil in the world. This was
      apparently related to the rebellion of the Sons of God (Gen 6:2-4).
      The Sons of God took the daughters of men for wives, and the
      offspring were the nephilim or giants.

      3. There appears to have been a second outbreak of this evil, and
      perhaps this is what the scripture means when it says "and also after
      that," (Gen 6:4). Israel's spies reported that there were giants in
      the land (Num 13:33,22 De 1:28 2:10 3:11 9:2 1Sa 17:4-7 2Sa 21:20-22
      1Ch 11:23 ) The Israelites were ordered to totally wipe out the evil
      inhabitants of the land (Deu 20:16-17, 7:1-4,16 Nu 21:2,3,35 33:52
      Jos 6:17-21 9:24,27 10:28,40 Jos 11:11,12,14). So the giants were
      once again designated to be destroyed from the earth. This time by
      the sword of the Israelites.

      4. While the giants aren't mentioned in the New Testament, perhaps
      there is a correlation in the symbolism Jesus used to describe some
      of His enemies. He referred to them as vipers (Mat 3:7,12:34,23:33,
      Luke 3:7), and said that their father was the Devil (John 8:44). He
      also described Judas as a devil (John 6:70, 13:2,27 Luke 22:3), and
      the son of perdition (John 17:11). He once even addressed Peter as
      Satan, and also told him that Satan desired him (Luke 22:31, Mat
      4:10, Mark 8:33).

      Jesus and His disciples cast devils out of the possessed. In one
      instance the devils asked if Jesus had come to toment them before the
      time. This is reminiscent of the punishment promised to the angels
      that rebelled (2Pe 2:4 Jude 1:6).

      5. Jesus declared that before the end of the world would be like the
      days of Noah (Mat 24:37, Luke 17:26), and went on to describe the
      suddeness with which judgment came. As noted before, in the time of
      Noah the earth was filled with evil because of the rebellion of
      angels (1 Pet 3:19,20 Ge 6:3,5,13).

      Satan himself appears to be cast to earth before his final judgment.
      In Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 Satan's fall is apparently described in
      parables. Jesus said He saw Satan fall from heaven like lightning
      after His disciples informed Him of their ability to cast out devils
      (Luke 10:18).

      6. In Revelation we see Satan thrown out of heaven (12:9) where there
      was no place left for the dragon and his angels. He is later sent to
      final judgment after a temporary binding (20:10). When Satan is
      thrown into the lake of fire he is reunited with a couple of his
      associates, the beast and the false prophet.

      What is the relationship of these two beasts (therion) to the earlier
      beasts in Revelation (zoon)? As earlier noted, before the first end
      of the world great evil was caused by rebellious angels. The dragon
      and his cohorts are also responsible for evil, deceiving and causing
      men to worship them. So Satan and his angels rebel and are removed
      from heaven (12:7,8). Once on the earth, Satan and his beastly pals
      cause great evil. Christ wages war againt them, the earth is
      destroyed, and wicked ones are sentenced to the lake of fire. The
      final great deception causes the end of the old world (20:11).

      In Noah's day angels left their first estate, caused evil in the
      world, and the earth was destroyed by flood. So there appears to be
      a similarity between Satan, his angels, the beast, and the false
      prophet to rebellious angels and perhaps the giants.

      7. So how does this help me to understand Revelation? I think the
      key is to see how the New Testament writers interpreted the
      scriptures. Paul said these OT stories were written for the benefit
      of believers (1Cor 10:11 Rom 15:4). He even used the word allegory
      in Galatians four. He spoke of mountains, women and cities to
      describe the old and new covenants. Mountains, a woman, and a city
      are also symbols in Revelation seventeen. Paul believed the symbols
      were used allegorically to describe theological ideas.

      Jude quotes from I Enoch, and uses its symbols to represent false
      teachers. First Enoch also speaks of seven mountains and seven
      stars, very similar to what is found in Revelation.

      In 2nd Peter the angels that sinned are compared to false prophets
      who bring in damnable heresies. Deception also plays a key role in
      Revelation (Rev 2:20, 12:9 13:14 18:23 19:20 20:3,8,10)

      So the whole point in all of this is that the puzzling symbols we see
      in Revelation that are often drawn from the OT, were seen by NT
      writers as represenative of theological ideas, such as the difference
      between law and grace (Gal 4). The evil that led to the end of the
      world in the OT represented heresies and false prophecies to the NT
      writers. In Revelation we have Satanic beasts instead of rebellious
      angels and giants. Both represent false heretical teachings that
      deceive, and lead to the destruction of the world.

      This view of the Revelation symbols is in contrast to the
      conventional view that these same symbols represent political powers
      and persecution. Paul said the battle was against rulers of
      darkness, and spiritual wickedness, not flesh and blood (Eph 6:12).

      Summary outline:

      Revelation and the End of the World

      1. Revelation describes the end of the world.

      2. The previous end of the world in the Bible and its cause.

      3. The giants and their erradication in the promised land.

      4. Devils in the gospel.

      5. As it was in the days of Noah.

      6. The causes of the end of the world in Revelation.

      7. The apostle's interpretation of these things.

      Alan Fuller
      Texas
    • Greg Clarke
      ... My friend and colleague, Peter Bolt, has just delivered the Moore College Annual Lectures. He addressed the Gospel of Mark. In one lecture, he spoke of the
      Message 2 of 6 , Aug 28, 2003
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        > From: "Alan Fuller" <rocsy@...>
        > Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:27:58 -0000
        > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [revelation-list] (unknown)
        >
        > 1. The Revelation may represent several things, but one thing it
        > surely describes is the end of the world....


        My friend and colleague, Peter Bolt, has just delivered the Moore College
        Annual Lectures. He addressed the Gospel of Mark. In one lecture, he spoke
        of the cross as the end of the world--the apocalyptic event which
        reinterprets apocalyptic. This makes a lot of sense of Mark 13, and makes it
        integral to the Gospel rather than some sort of interpolation.

        It also fits well with Rev 5 and the slain lamb on the throne. The
        'slain-ness' of the Lamb has always bothered me--why not a 'risen Lamb' of
        some kind? Peter Bolt's focus on the cross as the apocalyptic event, the
        means by which the king was crowned, seems to help here.

        Thoughts from others?

        Greg Clarke
      • Georg S. Adamsen
        I think you misunderstand Revelation 5. John sees the lamb hESTHKOS. hESTHKOS means that it is standing, which a dead lamb does not do. Moreover, it moved or
        Message 3 of 6 , Aug 29, 2003
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          I think you misunderstand Revelation 5. John sees the lamb hESTHKOS.
          hESTHKOS means that it is standing, which a dead lamb does not do. Moreover,
          it moved or went (or 'came') (v. 7), which a dead lamb does not.

          Dr. Georg S. Adamsen

          > -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          > Fra: Greg Clarke [mailto:gjclarke@...]
          > Sendt: 29. august 2003 01.55
          >
          >
          > It also fits well with Rev 5 and the slain lamb on the throne. The
          > 'slain-ness' of the Lamb has always bothered me--why not a 'risen Lamb' of
          > some kind? Peter Bolt's focus on the cross as the apocalyptic event, the
          > means by which the king was crowned, seems to help here.
          >
          > Thoughts from others?
          >
          > Greg Clarke
        • Alan Fuller
          Hi Greg, It makes a lot of sense to me to compare the cross to the end of the world. I look at it this way: A. Deception and treachery B. Tribulation and
          Message 4 of 6 , Aug 29, 2003
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            Hi Greg,

            It makes a lot of sense to me to compare the cross to the end of the
            world. I look at it this way:

            A. Deception and treachery
            B. Tribulation and judgment
            C. The crucifixion and the end of the world
            D. Resurrection

            I think we see these patterns in both the gospel and in Revelation.
            The deception and betrayal of Judas and Satanic forces. The
            persecution and judgment of Christ in the gospel, and the destruction
            of Judas. The persecution of saints, and the destruction of beasts
            in Revelation. Then there's the crucifixion and end of the world
            followed by the resurrection of Christ, and the resurrections in
            Revelation.

            I do see chapter 5 as more of a beginning of the end, if I understand
            you correctly.

            Alan


            --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, Greg Clarke <gjclarke@o...>
            wrote:
            > > From: "Alan Fuller" <rocsy@y...>
            > > Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            > > Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:27:58 -0000
            > > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            > > Subject: [revelation-list] (unknown)
            > >
            > > 1. The Revelation may represent several things, but one thing it
            > > surely describes is the end of the world....
            >
            >
            > My friend and colleague, Peter Bolt, has just delivered the Moore
            College
            > Annual Lectures. He addressed the Gospel of Mark. In one lecture,
            he spoke
            > of the cross as the end of the world--the apocalyptic event which
            > reinterprets apocalyptic. This makes a lot of sense of Mark 13, and
            makes it
            > integral to the Gospel rather than some sort of interpolation.
            >
            > It also fits well with Rev 5 and the slain lamb on the throne. The
            > 'slain-ness' of the Lamb has always bothered me--why not a 'risen
            Lamb' of
            > some kind? Peter Bolt's focus on the cross as the apocalyptic
            event, the
            > means by which the king was crowned, seems to help here.
            >
            > Thoughts from others?
            >
            > Greg Clarke
          • Don K
            I think Revelation 5 contains another element that enters directly into the equation, yet is generally ignored. That is the fact that John alludes to Jesus
            Message 5 of 6 , Aug 29, 2003
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              I think Revelation 5 contains another element that enters directly into the
              equation, yet is generally ignored. That is the fact that John alludes to
              Jesus "the lion of the tribe of Judah" thus, bringing to mind Genesis 49:10.
              It seems to me that in good midrashic form, John is calling his reader's
              attention to the fact that the time has come for the scepter to depart from
              Judah, because the Lion of Judah is about to take the scepter to himself by
              entering into his kingdom (Revelation 11:16f).
              This is more than a bit evocative and helpful, since 11:8f depicts the
              judgment of the city "where the Lord was slain" i.e. the center of Judah's
              sovereignty. There is a changing of world's about to take place. Judah was
              about to lose her scepter while the Lion of Judah assumed His.
              It was indeed the "end of the world," but it was not cosmological in the
              modern sense. It was the soteriological and eschatological climax of
              Israel's Old Covenant World.
              Don K

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Greg Clarke" <gjclarke@...>
              To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2003 6:55 PM
              Subject: [revelation-list] The Cross and the end of the world


              > > From: "Alan Fuller" <rocsy@...>
              > > Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:27:58 -0000
              > > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: [revelation-list] (unknown)
              > >
              > > 1. The Revelation may represent several things, but one thing it
              > > surely describes is the end of the world....
              >
              >
              > My friend and colleague, Peter Bolt, has just delivered the Moore College
              > Annual Lectures. He addressed the Gospel of Mark. In one lecture, he spoke
              > of the cross as the end of the world--the apocalyptic event which
              > reinterprets apocalyptic. This makes a lot of sense of Mark 13, and makes
              it
              > integral to the Gospel rather than some sort of interpolation.
              >
              > It also fits well with Rev 5 and the slain lamb on the throne. The
              > 'slain-ness' of the Lamb has always bothered me--why not a 'risen Lamb' of
              > some kind? Peter Bolt's focus on the cross as the apocalyptic event, the
              > means by which the king was crowned, seems to help here.
              >
              > Thoughts from others?
              >
              > Greg Clarke
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Greg Clarke
              Certainly true, Georg. The lamb isn t seated on the throne, although he is as near as possible to it--even in the midst of it in Rev 7:15. But the link
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 31, 2003
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                Certainly true, Georg. The lamb isn't seated on the throne, although he is
                as near as possible to it--even "in the midst" of it in Rev 7:15. But the
                link between the appearance of being slain (ESPHAGMENON) and worthiness to
                open the seals is clear (5: 9, 12; ; 13:8). The Lamb's 'slain-ness' seems to
                be the key to its power--not its current life. It is this connection between
                the death of Jesus (represented metaphorically) and his power to usher in
                the Judgement that interests me. His death, rather than his resurrection,
                seems to give him worth and power.

                Greg


                --
                Dr G.J. Clarke
                Director, Centre for Apologetic Scholarship and Education (CASE)
                New College
                University of New South Wales
                Sydney NSW 2052
                Ph. (61 2) 9381 1730
                Fax. (61 2) 9381 1909
                Email. g.clarke@...
                www.newcollege.unsw.edu.au/case.php


                > From: "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg@...>
                > Reply-To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:06:00 +0200
                > To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: SV: [revelation-list] The Cross and the end of the world
                >
                > I think you misunderstand Revelation 5. John sees the lamb hESTHKOS.
                > hESTHKOS means that it is standing, which a dead lamb does not do. Moreover,
                > it moved or went (or 'came') (v. 7), which a dead lamb does not.
                >
                > Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
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