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Re: [revelation-list] Thlipsis

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  • Don K
    Pere, I would agree in principle that thlipsis refers to Christian suffering. However, it appears to me that in the NT, the word is used (with some
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 14, 2003
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      Pere, I would agree in principle that thlipsis refers to Christian
      suffering. However, it appears to me that in the NT, the word is used (with
      some exceptions), primarily of the eschatological suffering, ordained by God
      for the saints to fill up the measure of suffering, in order for God's wrath
      to be poured out on the persecutors. (cf. Acts 14:22/ 2 Thes. 1:4f)
      Since I believe that the Olivet Discourse is the source of the Apocalypse, I
      find Jesus' prediction that the disciples would be delivered up to thlipsis
      (Matthew 24:9) normative and informative for Revelation. Further, the
      development of the book of Acts reveals the fulfillment of Jesus'
      prediction.

      I find the fulfillment of that eschatological measure of suffering--with the
      comcomittant filling of the measure of sin on the part of the persecutors--
      in the first century, as Jesus predicted (Matthew 23), and as elucidated by
      the Apocalypse in Revelation 6:9f; 16:6f; 17:6f; 18:20).

      I develop these concepts in my book Who Is This Babylon?

      Incidentally, A. J. Mattill wrote some excellent articles on thlipsis some
      time ago. My memory fails me at the moment as to when, but I believe it was
      in JBL, perhaps in the 70s. (Sorry for the vagueness).

      In short, I agree that thlipsis has nothing to do with the everyday human
      experience.

      Don K.
      Who Is This Babylon?
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Pere Porta Roca" <pporta@...>
      To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 2:09 AM
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thlipsis


      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
      > To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
      > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thlipsis
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > This weekend I spent some time in order to understand or discover what the
      > word 'thlipsis' --Ap 1:9; 2:9.10.22; 7:14; -- really means. I read some
      > related clauses in NT, for instance Jn 16:21.33, and looked at my biblical
      > dictionary (Haag-van den Born-De Ausejo) and realized that this
      > ord -tribulation- unfortunately was not there.
      >
      > So, having thought deeply enough about it I reached to the following
      > provisional definition:
      >
      >
      >
      > In Revelation 'thlipsis' (= tribulation)
      >
      > --is the amount, the ensemble of sufferings of all kind that a believer
      must
      > endure as a consequence of his christian faith sincerely embraced and
      > heartly lived and brought to practice day after day in all sort of
      > circumstances. (Perhaps the same would be true if we consider the
      > collectivity of believers, the Church? Or perhaps not?)
      >
      >
      >
      > --is not the natural suffering common to all members of the mankind as
      human
      > beings: heat in summer, cold in winter, sickness, a road accident, the
      bite
      > of an insect, etc.
      >
      >
      >
      > Now I ask the members of this discussion forum the following two
      questions:
      >
      > First, do you think I'm right? Would you propose another definition to the
      > word which would be either more precise or more completed, a better one in
      > sum?
      >
      > Secondly: do you find it interesting we, listers, try to make or find a
      > plausible definition to such words -either nouns or verbs or.-- appearing
      > in and to same extent characteristic of Revelation as 'kingdom',
      'patience',
      > 'tree of the life', 'crown of life' and many others? Would it not be
      > interesting to achieve a little dictionary of definitions of concepts
      > appearing in Revelation that would be the result of our common thinking
      and
      > debating on the list here and which could be accepted or acceptable for
      all
      > believers regardless to which church they belong?
      >
      >
      >
      > Pere
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
    • Edgar Krentz
      ... The Verb THLIBO means to press. The noun s generic sense is pressure. It gets its specific meaning from context. It can apply to physical pressure,
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 15, 2003
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        At 9:09 AM +0200 7/14/03, Pere Porta Roca wrote:
        >----- Original Message -----
        >From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
        >To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
        >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
        >Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thlipsis
        >
        >This weekend I spent some time in order to understand or discover what the
        >word 'thlipsis' --Ap 1:9; 2:9.10.22; 7:14; -- really means. I read some
        >related clauses in NT, for instance Jn 16:21.33, and looked at my biblical
        >dictionary (Haag-van den Born-De Ausejo) and realized that this
        >ord -tribulation- unfortunately was not there.
        >
        >So, having thought deeply enough about it I reached to the following
        >provisional definition:

        >In Revelation 'thlipsis' (= tribulation)
        >
        >--is the amount, the ensemble of sufferings of all kind that a believer must
        >endure as a consequence of his christian faith sincerely embraced and
        >heartly lived and brought to practice day after day in all sort of
        >circumstances. (Perhaps the same would be true if we consider the
        >collectivity of believers, the Church? Or perhaps not?)
        >
        >--is not the natural suffering common to all members of the mankind as human
        >beings: heat in summer, cold in winter, sickness, a road accident, the bite
        >of an insect, etc.
        >
        >Now I ask the members of this discussion forum the following two questions:
        >
        >First, do you think I'm right? Would you propose another definition to the
        >word which would be either more precise or more completed, a better one in
        >sum?
        >
        >Secondly: do you find it interesting we, listers, try to make or find a
        >plausible definition to such words -either nouns or verbs or.-- appearing
        >in and to same extent characteristic of Revelation as 'kingdom', 'patience',
        >'tree of the life', 'crown of life' and many others? Would it not be
        >interesting to achieve a little dictionary of definitions of concepts
        >appearing in Revelation that would be the result of our common thinking and
        >debating on the list here and which could be accepted or acceptable for all
        >believers regardless to which church they belong?
        >
        >Pere
        >
        The Verb THLIBO means "to press." The noun's generic sense is
        "pressure." It gets its specific meaning from context. It can apply
        to physical pressure, emotional or pychological pressure, etc.

        --
        ****************************************************************
        Edgar Krentz
        Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
        Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
        1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
        Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
        Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
        home e-mail: ekrentz@ekrentz@...
        ------------------------------------------------------------
        GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
        "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
        ***************************************************************
      • MORIAH PLASTICS (COATES)
        For those of us who understand Revelation to be framed in the context of whole scripture and the period of persecution suffered by the church immediately prior
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 15, 2003
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          For those of us who understand Revelation to be framed in the context of
          whole scripture and the period of persecution suffered by the church
          immediately prior to AD70, the word tribulation is to be understood as
          something experienced by what John terms, the martyrs. Christian tribulation
          would therfore be a result of direct persecution, within this context, of
          the believers as a result of their faith and in my further personal
          understanding, from what God allows them to experience as a result of
          testing and world order reaction to their subsequent testimony. etc. I don't
          see John (Rev 1:9) experiencing tribulation for what he actually said and
          did, but rather the sense comes through that John was persecuted because of
          what the gospel meant to the world order of the time. John was exiled on
          account of the gospel. This puts the emphasis back on tribulation as a
          necessary or de facto result for those representing Christianity to its
          logical end
          .
          St. Stephen as the first Christian martyr was not killed actually for just
          what he said. His evidence or testimony, by Christian new covenant
          understanding, was all true and without any falsehood. He was murdered
          ultimately because of the threat that Christianity posed to both the
          religious and political orders of the day.

          Tribulation then is something that the Christian martyr enters into by
          choice. What comes to mind is Rousos Rushdooney's definition of martyr
          (unfortunately I can not currently cite the source. Perhaps somebody can
          find it for us) where he argues that the Christian believer or "martyr", as
          a result of their faith, is a more active prosecutor/witness to the gospel
          rather than a passive recipient of persecution due to a personal belief
          system at odds with the state or religion of the day. This comes at
          wonderfully at Stephen's trial where he becomes the chief witness and
          ultimately the spiritual co-prosecutor in an amazing turn of events. Rather
          then him standing trial the Sanhedrin does instead.

          Jason B. Coates
          Johannesburg, S. Africa
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