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Re: [revelation-list] Thlipsis

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  • Pere Porta Roca
    ... From: Ian Paul To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [revelation-list]
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 14, 2003
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
      To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thlipsis




      This weekend I spent some time in order to understand or discover what the
      word 'thlipsis' --Ap 1:9; 2:9.10.22; 7:14; -- really means. I read some
      related clauses in NT, for instance Jn 16:21.33, and looked at my biblical
      dictionary (Haag-van den Born-De Ausejo) and realized that this
      ord -tribulation- unfortunately was not there.

      So, having thought deeply enough about it I reached to the following
      provisional definition:



      In Revelation 'thlipsis' (= tribulation)

      --is the amount, the ensemble of sufferings of all kind that a believer must
      endure as a consequence of his christian faith sincerely embraced and
      heartly lived and brought to practice day after day in all sort of
      circumstances. (Perhaps the same would be true if we consider the
      collectivity of believers, the Church? Or perhaps not?)



      --is not the natural suffering common to all members of the mankind as human
      beings: heat in summer, cold in winter, sickness, a road accident, the bite
      of an insect, etc.



      Now I ask the members of this discussion forum the following two questions:

      First, do you think I'm right? Would you propose another definition to the
      word which would be either more precise or more completed, a better one in
      sum?

      Secondly: do you find it interesting we, listers, try to make or find a
      plausible definition to such words -either nouns or verbs or.-- appearing
      in and to same extent characteristic of Revelation as 'kingdom', 'patience',
      'tree of the life', 'crown of life' and many others? Would it not be
      interesting to achieve a little dictionary of definitions of concepts
      appearing in Revelation that would be the result of our common thinking and
      debating on the list here and which could be accepted or acceptable for all
      believers regardless to which church they belong?



      Pere
    • Ursula Leahy
      I am away from College now until July 25th, and will deal with all emails as soon as I return. If your email is urgent, please contact Liz Taite
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 14, 2003
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        I am away from College now until July 25th, and will deal with all emails as soon as I return.

        If your email is urgent, please contact Liz Taite (taitee@...; 0151 291 3516) and she will do all she can to help.
      • Don K
        Pere, I would agree in principle that thlipsis refers to Christian suffering. However, it appears to me that in the NT, the word is used (with some
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 14, 2003
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          Pere, I would agree in principle that thlipsis refers to Christian
          suffering. However, it appears to me that in the NT, the word is used (with
          some exceptions), primarily of the eschatological suffering, ordained by God
          for the saints to fill up the measure of suffering, in order for God's wrath
          to be poured out on the persecutors. (cf. Acts 14:22/ 2 Thes. 1:4f)
          Since I believe that the Olivet Discourse is the source of the Apocalypse, I
          find Jesus' prediction that the disciples would be delivered up to thlipsis
          (Matthew 24:9) normative and informative for Revelation. Further, the
          development of the book of Acts reveals the fulfillment of Jesus'
          prediction.

          I find the fulfillment of that eschatological measure of suffering--with the
          comcomittant filling of the measure of sin on the part of the persecutors--
          in the first century, as Jesus predicted (Matthew 23), and as elucidated by
          the Apocalypse in Revelation 6:9f; 16:6f; 17:6f; 18:20).

          I develop these concepts in my book Who Is This Babylon?

          Incidentally, A. J. Mattill wrote some excellent articles on thlipsis some
          time ago. My memory fails me at the moment as to when, but I believe it was
          in JBL, perhaps in the 70s. (Sorry for the vagueness).

          In short, I agree that thlipsis has nothing to do with the everyday human
          experience.

          Don K.
          Who Is This Babylon?
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Pere Porta Roca" <pporta@...>
          To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 2:09 AM
          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thlipsis


          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
          > To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
          > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thlipsis
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > This weekend I spent some time in order to understand or discover what the
          > word 'thlipsis' --Ap 1:9; 2:9.10.22; 7:14; -- really means. I read some
          > related clauses in NT, for instance Jn 16:21.33, and looked at my biblical
          > dictionary (Haag-van den Born-De Ausejo) and realized that this
          > ord -tribulation- unfortunately was not there.
          >
          > So, having thought deeply enough about it I reached to the following
          > provisional definition:
          >
          >
          >
          > In Revelation 'thlipsis' (= tribulation)
          >
          > --is the amount, the ensemble of sufferings of all kind that a believer
          must
          > endure as a consequence of his christian faith sincerely embraced and
          > heartly lived and brought to practice day after day in all sort of
          > circumstances. (Perhaps the same would be true if we consider the
          > collectivity of believers, the Church? Or perhaps not?)
          >
          >
          >
          > --is not the natural suffering common to all members of the mankind as
          human
          > beings: heat in summer, cold in winter, sickness, a road accident, the
          bite
          > of an insect, etc.
          >
          >
          >
          > Now I ask the members of this discussion forum the following two
          questions:
          >
          > First, do you think I'm right? Would you propose another definition to the
          > word which would be either more precise or more completed, a better one in
          > sum?
          >
          > Secondly: do you find it interesting we, listers, try to make or find a
          > plausible definition to such words -either nouns or verbs or.-- appearing
          > in and to same extent characteristic of Revelation as 'kingdom',
          'patience',
          > 'tree of the life', 'crown of life' and many others? Would it not be
          > interesting to achieve a little dictionary of definitions of concepts
          > appearing in Revelation that would be the result of our common thinking
          and
          > debating on the list here and which could be accepted or acceptable for
          all
          > believers regardless to which church they belong?
          >
          >
          >
          > Pere
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Edgar Krentz
          ... The Verb THLIBO means to press. The noun s generic sense is pressure. It gets its specific meaning from context. It can apply to physical pressure,
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 15, 2003
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            At 9:09 AM +0200 7/14/03, Pere Porta Roca wrote:
            >----- Original Message -----
            >From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
            >To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
            >Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
            >Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thlipsis
            >
            >This weekend I spent some time in order to understand or discover what the
            >word 'thlipsis' --Ap 1:9; 2:9.10.22; 7:14; -- really means. I read some
            >related clauses in NT, for instance Jn 16:21.33, and looked at my biblical
            >dictionary (Haag-van den Born-De Ausejo) and realized that this
            >ord -tribulation- unfortunately was not there.
            >
            >So, having thought deeply enough about it I reached to the following
            >provisional definition:

            >In Revelation 'thlipsis' (= tribulation)
            >
            >--is the amount, the ensemble of sufferings of all kind that a believer must
            >endure as a consequence of his christian faith sincerely embraced and
            >heartly lived and brought to practice day after day in all sort of
            >circumstances. (Perhaps the same would be true if we consider the
            >collectivity of believers, the Church? Or perhaps not?)
            >
            >--is not the natural suffering common to all members of the mankind as human
            >beings: heat in summer, cold in winter, sickness, a road accident, the bite
            >of an insect, etc.
            >
            >Now I ask the members of this discussion forum the following two questions:
            >
            >First, do you think I'm right? Would you propose another definition to the
            >word which would be either more precise or more completed, a better one in
            >sum?
            >
            >Secondly: do you find it interesting we, listers, try to make or find a
            >plausible definition to such words -either nouns or verbs or.-- appearing
            >in and to same extent characteristic of Revelation as 'kingdom', 'patience',
            >'tree of the life', 'crown of life' and many others? Would it not be
            >interesting to achieve a little dictionary of definitions of concepts
            >appearing in Revelation that would be the result of our common thinking and
            >debating on the list here and which could be accepted or acceptable for all
            >believers regardless to which church they belong?
            >
            >Pere
            >
            The Verb THLIBO means "to press." The noun's generic sense is
            "pressure." It gets its specific meaning from context. It can apply
            to physical pressure, emotional or pychological pressure, etc.

            --
            ****************************************************************
            Edgar Krentz
            Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
            Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
            1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
            Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
            Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
            home e-mail: ekrentz@ekrentz@...
            ------------------------------------------------------------
            GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
            "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
            ***************************************************************
          • MORIAH PLASTICS (COATES)
            For those of us who understand Revelation to be framed in the context of whole scripture and the period of persecution suffered by the church immediately prior
            Message 5 of 5 , Jul 15, 2003
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              For those of us who understand Revelation to be framed in the context of
              whole scripture and the period of persecution suffered by the church
              immediately prior to AD70, the word tribulation is to be understood as
              something experienced by what John terms, the martyrs. Christian tribulation
              would therfore be a result of direct persecution, within this context, of
              the believers as a result of their faith and in my further personal
              understanding, from what God allows them to experience as a result of
              testing and world order reaction to their subsequent testimony. etc. I don't
              see John (Rev 1:9) experiencing tribulation for what he actually said and
              did, but rather the sense comes through that John was persecuted because of
              what the gospel meant to the world order of the time. John was exiled on
              account of the gospel. This puts the emphasis back on tribulation as a
              necessary or de facto result for those representing Christianity to its
              logical end
              .
              St. Stephen as the first Christian martyr was not killed actually for just
              what he said. His evidence or testimony, by Christian new covenant
              understanding, was all true and without any falsehood. He was murdered
              ultimately because of the threat that Christianity posed to both the
              religious and political orders of the day.

              Tribulation then is something that the Christian martyr enters into by
              choice. What comes to mind is Rousos Rushdooney's definition of martyr
              (unfortunately I can not currently cite the source. Perhaps somebody can
              find it for us) where he argues that the Christian believer or "martyr", as
              a result of their faith, is a more active prosecutor/witness to the gospel
              rather than a passive recipient of persecution due to a personal belief
              system at odds with the state or religion of the day. This comes at
              wonderfully at Stephen's trial where he becomes the chief witness and
              ultimately the spiritual co-prosecutor in an amazing turn of events. Rather
              then him standing trial the Sanhedrin does instead.

              Jason B. Coates
              Johannesburg, S. Africa
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