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Morning star

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  • Pere Porta Roca
    ... From: Pere Porta Roca To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:36 AM Re 22,16. Is it logical we
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Pere Porta Roca" <pporta@...>
      To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:36 AM

      Re 22,16.
      Is it logical we translate 'o aster...o proïnós' as 'morning star'?

      During the morning no star is shining -nor is seen- in the sky because the
      sun rose, the only sky body which shines along the morning.. Would it not be
      more logical to translate the clause as 'I am the star of the daybreak' or
      'I am the star of the early morning'?

      In Spanish it would be 'Yo soy la estrella de la madrugada' instead of 'Yo
      soy la estrella de la mañana'

      What do you think about?

      Pere
    • Ian Paul
      ... This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the horizon, (and
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
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        >Re 22,16.
        >Is it logical we translate 'o aster...o proïnós' as 'morning star'?
        >
        >During the morning no star is shining -nor is seen- in the sky because the
        >sun rose,

        This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
        actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the
        horizon, (and is also visible at different times in the light evening sky).
        This is perhaps more evident in latitudes further from the equator, where
        there is a longer twilight (or whatever is the equivalent in the morning.)
        In other words, its appearance heralds the coming fullness of dawn in a sky
        which is already getting light.

        I think there is a strong symbolism here of Jesus as the bearer of the first
        light of the dawn that will only fully come on his return and the full
        revealing of the kingdom of God.

        Revd Dr Ian Paul
        Poole, Dorset UK
        (and a very amateur astronomer)
      • Pere Porta Roca
        ... From: Ian Paul To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [revelation-list]
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
          To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Morning star



          This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
          actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the



          Yes... but you do not answer my question: is it logical to translate
          'morning star'? Would it not be better translated as 'the early morning
          star' or as 'the dawn star'?

          Pere
        • Upham family
          Dear Pere, The received text adds the words, and early which is found in only13 Greek manuscripts. The vast majority of the handwritten manuscripts, more
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 12, 2003
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            Dear Pere,
            The received text adds the words, "and early" which is found in only13 Greek
            manuscripts.
            The vast majority of the handwritten manuscripts, more than 250, do not
            contain these words
            and this includes the 3 oldest manuscripts, Aleph, A and C. The only
            aditional reference for
            moring star in the New Testament is found in Revelation 2:28. Sincerely,
            T.Upham

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Pere Porta Roca" <pporta@...>
            To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:47 PM
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Morning star


            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
            > To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
            > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Morning star
            >
            >
            >
            > This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
            > actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the
            >
            >
            >
            > Yes... but you do not answer my question: is it logical to translate
            > 'morning star'? Would it not be better translated as 'the early morning
            > star' or as 'the dawn star'?
            >
            > Pere
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Ian Paul
            ... and Pere replied ... But there is an important issue here regarding methodology in translation and semantic fields. The text appears to be referring (in
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 15, 2003
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              I said:

              >This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
              >actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the

              and Pere replied

              >Yes... but you do not answer my question: is it logical to translate
              >'morning star'? Would it not be better translated as 'the early morning
              >star' or as 'the dawn star'?

              But there is an important issue here regarding methodology in translation
              and semantic fields. The text appears to be referring (in the context of a
              metaphor) to that which in English is already known as 'the morning star.'
              So we had better translate it into English as 'the morning star'--even if we
              think that is not a good English description of what it refers to!

              Ian Paul
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