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Re: Morning star

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  • Alan Fuller
    Dear Kym, Thanks for your insight. I have gone back and re-read your earlier post, and I think it makes a lot of sense. It is intresting to compare
    Message 1 of 11 , May 6 11:28 AM
      Dear Kym,

      Thanks for your insight. I have gone back and re-read your earlier
      post, and I think it makes a lot of sense. It is intresting to
      compare similarities between the epistles and Revelation.

      I actually prefer an early dating of Revelation, but I can live with
      either view.

      And thanks to the others for their comments also.

      Alan F.
      Texas


      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "kymhsm" <ksmith@s...> wrote:
      > Dear Alan,
      >
      > In your response to Pere Porta Roca you mention 2 Pet 1:19 and
      > say
      >
      > <<<I'm sure you're already familiar with this, but I'll mention it
      > since you didn't. Second Peter 1:19 describes Christ as the
      > morning star which outshines the light of the earlier prophetic
      > witness.
      > I think Second Peter 1:19 is intresting when looking at the timing
      > of prophetic fulfillment. How long is "soon" in prophecy? How
      > immediate is "quickly?" How long is the time span until the day
      > dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts?
      > If we look at these things in an idealistic fashion, I don't think
      we
      > need to limit them to a first century experience. Maybe that's why
      > John the Revelator used this particular symbol.>>>
      >
      > I think, though not for the same reason, that you are right to see
      > this verse as important in understanding the 'soons' and
      > 'quicklies' of the Apocalypse. However, I would like to suggest
      > that 'John the Revelator' did not use this symbol because Peter
      > had included it. On the contrary, Peter used it because he was
      > familiar with its use in the Revelation.
      >
      > I received no responses to my post of April 1 (an unfortunate
      > date for it!) and so I did not do the second part. If I had, this
      > reference to the Morning Star would have been one of the
      > indicators that 2 Peter (with 1 Peter) was written in anticipation
      of
      > the immediate fulfilment of the things foretold in the Revelation.
      > The urgency has clearly heightened with the second epistle.
      >
      > Sincerely,
      >
      > Kym Smith
      > Adelaide
      > South Australia
      > khs@p...
    • Pere Porta Roca
      ... From: Pere Porta Roca To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:36 AM Re 22,16. Is it logical we
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Pere Porta Roca" <pporta@...>
        To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:36 AM

        Re 22,16.
        Is it logical we translate 'o aster...o proïnós' as 'morning star'?

        During the morning no star is shining -nor is seen- in the sky because the
        sun rose, the only sky body which shines along the morning.. Would it not be
        more logical to translate the clause as 'I am the star of the daybreak' or
        'I am the star of the early morning'?

        In Spanish it would be 'Yo soy la estrella de la madrugada' instead of 'Yo
        soy la estrella de la mañana'

        What do you think about?

        Pere
      • Ian Paul
        ... This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the horizon, (and
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
          >Re 22,16.
          >Is it logical we translate 'o aster...o proïnós' as 'morning star'?
          >
          >During the morning no star is shining -nor is seen- in the sky because the
          >sun rose,

          This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
          actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the
          horizon, (and is also visible at different times in the light evening sky).
          This is perhaps more evident in latitudes further from the equator, where
          there is a longer twilight (or whatever is the equivalent in the morning.)
          In other words, its appearance heralds the coming fullness of dawn in a sky
          which is already getting light.

          I think there is a strong symbolism here of Jesus as the bearer of the first
          light of the dawn that will only fully come on his return and the full
          revealing of the kingdom of God.

          Revd Dr Ian Paul
          Poole, Dorset UK
          (and a very amateur astronomer)
        • Pere Porta Roca
          ... From: Ian Paul To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [revelation-list]
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 10, 2003
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
            To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Morning star



            This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
            actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the



            Yes... but you do not answer my question: is it logical to translate
            'morning star'? Would it not be better translated as 'the early morning
            star' or as 'the dawn star'?

            Pere
          • Upham family
            Dear Pere, The received text adds the words, and early which is found in only13 Greek manuscripts. The vast majority of the handwritten manuscripts, more
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 12, 2003
              Dear Pere,
              The received text adds the words, "and early" which is found in only13 Greek
              manuscripts.
              The vast majority of the handwritten manuscripts, more than 250, do not
              contain these words
              and this includes the 3 oldest manuscripts, Aleph, A and C. The only
              aditional reference for
              moring star in the New Testament is found in Revelation 2:28. Sincerely,
              T.Upham

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Pere Porta Roca" <pporta@...>
              To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:47 PM
              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Morning star


              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
              > To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
              > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Morning star
              >
              >
              >
              > This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
              > actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the
              >
              >
              >
              > Yes... but you do not answer my question: is it logical to translate
              > 'morning star'? Would it not be better translated as 'the early morning
              > star' or as 'the dawn star'?
              >
              > Pere
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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              >
              >
              >
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              >
              >
            • Ian Paul
              ... and Pere replied ... But there is an important issue here regarding methodology in translation and semantic fields. The text appears to be referring (in
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 15, 2003
                I said:

                >This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
                >actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the

                and Pere replied

                >Yes... but you do not answer my question: is it logical to translate
                >'morning star'? Would it not be better translated as 'the early morning
                >star' or as 'the dawn star'?

                But there is an important issue here regarding methodology in translation
                and semantic fields. The text appears to be referring (in the context of a
                metaphor) to that which in English is already known as 'the morning star.'
                So we had better translate it into English as 'the morning star'--even if we
                think that is not a good English description of what it refers to!

                Ian Paul
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