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Morning star

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  • Pere Porta Roca
    Dear all, I m particulary interested, here and now, in knowing which real sense have Jesus words in the final part of Re 22:16: EGO EIMI ... O ASTER O LAMPROS
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 30, 2003
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      Dear all,

      I'm particulary interested, here and now, in knowing which real sense have
      Jesus' words in the final part of Re 22:16: EGO EIMI ... O ASTER O LAMPROS O
      PROINOS (I am the bright morning star).

      Where can I find something solid and well based, some specific answer(s) to
      this question (and not general comparisons as, for instance, with Is 14:12;
      or general considerations as, for instance, "star is a messianic symbol (see
      Nm 24:17)" as I read in my catalan bible)?

      Beside this is it possible too you make me know what you think about this
      Jesus' cutting assertion?

      I should be grateful to those who show their mind about this subject.

      Pere Porta Roca,
      a chrystian believer
    • Alan Fuller
      Hi Pere Porta Roca, I m sure you re already familiar with this, but I ll mention it since you didn t. Second Peter 1:19 describes Christ as the morning star
      Message 2 of 11 , May 2, 2003
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        Hi Pere Porta Roca,

        I'm sure you're already familiar with this, but I'll mention it since
        you didn't. Second Peter 1:19 describes Christ as the morning star
        which outshines the light of the earlier prophetic witness.

        I think Second Peter 1:19 is intresting when looking at the timing of
        prophetic fulfillment. How long is "soon" in prophecy? How
        immediate is "quickly?" How long is the time span until the day
        dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts?

        If we look at these things in an idealistic fashion, I don't think we
        need to limit them to a first century experience. Maybe that's why
        John the Revelator used this particular symbol.

        Thanks and I hope you find the information you're looking for.

        Alan
        Texas


        --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Pere Porta Roca"
        <pporta@t...> wrote:
        > Dear all,
        >
        > I'm particulary interested, here and now, in knowing which real
        sense have
        > Jesus' words in the final part of Re 22:16: EGO EIMI ... O ASTER O
        LAMPROS O
        > PROINOS (I am the bright morning star).
        >
        > Where can I find something solid and well based, some specific
        answer(s) to
        > this question (and not general comparisons as, for instance, with
        Is 14:12;
        > or general considerations as, for instance, "star is a messianic
        symbol (see
        > Nm 24:17)" as I read in my catalan bible)?
        >
        > Beside this is it possible too you make me know what you think
        about this
        > Jesus' cutting assertion?
        >
        > I should be grateful to those who show their mind about this
        subject.
        >
        > Pere Porta Roca,
        > a chrystian believer
      • Bob MacDonald
        Hi Pere Morning star here is not exactly the same word as in 2 Peter though it may have similar sense. 2 Peter 1:19 is phosphoros - bearer of light - lucifer
        Message 3 of 11 , May 2, 2003
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          Hi Pere

          Morning star here is not exactly the same word as in 2 Peter though it may
          have similar sense.

          2 Peter 1:19 is phosphoros - bearer of light - lucifer in the Latin of
          Cicero - so Aune points out. Curious that this title applied in Isaiah
          14:12 to Lucifer is taken as a name by the speaker of this passage in Rev.

          Rev 22:16 is part of the 'closing bracket' of the book, picking up the gift
          noted in Rev 2:28. Aune points out that Rev 22:10-20 forms the epilogue of
          Rev as a classically formed oration.

          Aune has a page on the Messianic symbolism (1227) including the intriguing
          comment that the Damascus document, alluding to Numbers 24:17, calls the
          star (Messiah) the interpreter of Torah.

          Bob

          mailto::BobMacDonald@...
          + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

          Catch the foxes for us,
          the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
          for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
          http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
        • Don K
          Hello, Alan, and by the way thanks for your comments on the other post. Very much appreciated. I would only add this. I think that the star referent goes back
          Message 4 of 11 , May 5, 2003
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            Hello, Alan, and by the way thanks for your comments on the other post. Very
            much appreciated.
            I would only add this. I think that the star referent goes back to Numbers
            24. If that be the case, note that Balaam said "I see him but not near."
            That "not near" allusion spans a time of almost 1500 years. If we then
            compare that "not near" with Peter's statements that "the end of all things
            has drawn near" (engeken), it seems incongruous to me that the fulfillment
            of Peter's eschatological prediction would lie outside that 1500 year
            parameter. There is a marked contrast between the coming of the star
            anticipated in Numbers and that anticipated by Peter.
            This contrast is emphasized when Peter says that the Old Covenant prophets
            were informed that the salvation that they foretold, to come at in the last
            times, was not for their day, but for Peter's contemporary generation (Cf
            Jesus' thoughts on this Matthew 13:17, and Hebrews 11:13f as well). Once
            again, this chronological contrast seems important. Peter certainly believed
            he and his contemporaries were living n the days foretold by the OT prophets
            (Acts 3:21f).
            Thanks again for your thoughts,
            Don K

            A PS here.
            Can anyone point me to some good literature on the 144,000 of chapter 7 and
            14 of the Apocalypse?
            Thanks

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Alan Fuller" <rocsy@...>
            To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 2:02 PM
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Morning star


            >
            > Hi Pere Porta Roca,
            >
            > I'm sure you're already familiar with this, but I'll mention it since
            > you didn't. Second Peter 1:19 describes Christ as the morning star
            > which outshines the light of the earlier prophetic witness.
            >
            > I think Second Peter 1:19 is intresting when looking at the timing of
            > prophetic fulfillment. How long is "soon" in prophecy? How
            > immediate is "quickly?" How long is the time span until the day
            > dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts?
            >
            > If we look at these things in an idealistic fashion, I don't think we
            > need to limit them to a first century experience. Maybe that's why
            > John the Revelator used this particular symbol.
            >
            > Thanks and I hope you find the information you're looking for.
            >
            > Alan
            > Texas
            >
            >
            > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Pere Porta Roca"
            > <pporta@t...> wrote:
            > > Dear all,
            > >
            > > I'm particulary interested, here and now, in knowing which real
            > sense have
            > > Jesus' words in the final part of Re 22:16: EGO EIMI ... O ASTER O
            > LAMPROS O
            > > PROINOS (I am the bright morning star).
            > >
            > > Where can I find something solid and well based, some specific
            > answer(s) to
            > > this question (and not general comparisons as, for instance, with
            > Is 14:12;
            > > or general considerations as, for instance, "star is a messianic
            > symbol (see
            > > Nm 24:17)" as I read in my catalan bible)?
            > >
            > > Beside this is it possible too you make me know what you think
            > about this
            > > Jesus' cutting assertion?
            > >
            > > I should be grateful to those who show their mind about this
            > subject.
            > >
            > > Pere Porta Roca,
            > > a chrystian believer
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • kymhsm
            Dear Alan, In your response to Pere Porta Roca you mention 2 Pet 1:19 and say
            Message 5 of 11 , May 5, 2003
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              Dear Alan,

              In your response to Pere Porta Roca you mention 2 Pet 1:19 and
              say

              <<<I'm sure you're already familiar with this, but I'll mention it
              since you didn't. Second Peter 1:19 describes Christ as the
              morning star which outshines the light of the earlier prophetic
              witness.
              I think Second Peter 1:19 is intresting when looking at the timing
              of prophetic fulfillment. How long is "soon" in prophecy? How
              immediate is "quickly?" How long is the time span until the day
              dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts?
              If we look at these things in an idealistic fashion, I don't think we
              need to limit them to a first century experience. Maybe that's why
              John the Revelator used this particular symbol.>>>

              I think, though not for the same reason, that you are right to see
              this verse as important in understanding the 'soons' and
              'quicklies' of the Apocalypse. However, I would like to suggest
              that 'John the Revelator' did not use this symbol because Peter
              had included it. On the contrary, Peter used it because he was
              familiar with its use in the Revelation.

              I received no responses to my post of April 1 (an unfortunate
              date for it!) and so I did not do the second part. If I had, this
              reference to the Morning Star would have been one of the
              indicators that 2 Peter (with 1 Peter) was written in anticipation of
              the immediate fulfilment of the things foretold in the Revelation.
              The urgency has clearly heightened with the second epistle.

              Sincerely,

              Kym Smith
              Adelaide
              South Australia
              khs@...
            • Alan Fuller
              Dear Kym, Thanks for your insight. I have gone back and re-read your earlier post, and I think it makes a lot of sense. It is intresting to compare
              Message 6 of 11 , May 6, 2003
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                Dear Kym,

                Thanks for your insight. I have gone back and re-read your earlier
                post, and I think it makes a lot of sense. It is intresting to
                compare similarities between the epistles and Revelation.

                I actually prefer an early dating of Revelation, but I can live with
                either view.

                And thanks to the others for their comments also.

                Alan F.
                Texas


                --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "kymhsm" <ksmith@s...> wrote:
                > Dear Alan,
                >
                > In your response to Pere Porta Roca you mention 2 Pet 1:19 and
                > say
                >
                > <<<I'm sure you're already familiar with this, but I'll mention it
                > since you didn't. Second Peter 1:19 describes Christ as the
                > morning star which outshines the light of the earlier prophetic
                > witness.
                > I think Second Peter 1:19 is intresting when looking at the timing
                > of prophetic fulfillment. How long is "soon" in prophecy? How
                > immediate is "quickly?" How long is the time span until the day
                > dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts?
                > If we look at these things in an idealistic fashion, I don't think
                we
                > need to limit them to a first century experience. Maybe that's why
                > John the Revelator used this particular symbol.>>>
                >
                > I think, though not for the same reason, that you are right to see
                > this verse as important in understanding the 'soons' and
                > 'quicklies' of the Apocalypse. However, I would like to suggest
                > that 'John the Revelator' did not use this symbol because Peter
                > had included it. On the contrary, Peter used it because he was
                > familiar with its use in the Revelation.
                >
                > I received no responses to my post of April 1 (an unfortunate
                > date for it!) and so I did not do the second part. If I had, this
                > reference to the Morning Star would have been one of the
                > indicators that 2 Peter (with 1 Peter) was written in anticipation
                of
                > the immediate fulfilment of the things foretold in the Revelation.
                > The urgency has clearly heightened with the second epistle.
                >
                > Sincerely,
                >
                > Kym Smith
                > Adelaide
                > South Australia
                > khs@p...
              • Pere Porta Roca
                ... From: Pere Porta Roca To: Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:36 AM Re 22,16. Is it logical we
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 10 8:10 AM
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Pere Porta Roca" <pporta@...>
                  To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 09, 2003 6:36 AM

                  Re 22,16.
                  Is it logical we translate 'o aster...o proïnós' as 'morning star'?

                  During the morning no star is shining -nor is seen- in the sky because the
                  sun rose, the only sky body which shines along the morning.. Would it not be
                  more logical to translate the clause as 'I am the star of the daybreak' or
                  'I am the star of the early morning'?

                  In Spanish it would be 'Yo soy la estrella de la madrugada' instead of 'Yo
                  soy la estrella de la mañana'

                  What do you think about?

                  Pere
                • Ian Paul
                  ... This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the horizon, (and
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 10 9:14 AM
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                    >Re 22,16.
                    >Is it logical we translate 'o aster...o proïnós' as 'morning star'?
                    >
                    >During the morning no star is shining -nor is seen- in the sky because the
                    >sun rose,

                    This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
                    actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the
                    horizon, (and is also visible at different times in the light evening sky).
                    This is perhaps more evident in latitudes further from the equator, where
                    there is a longer twilight (or whatever is the equivalent in the morning.)
                    In other words, its appearance heralds the coming fullness of dawn in a sky
                    which is already getting light.

                    I think there is a strong symbolism here of Jesus as the bearer of the first
                    light of the dawn that will only fully come on his return and the full
                    revealing of the kingdom of God.

                    Revd Dr Ian Paul
                    Poole, Dorset UK
                    (and a very amateur astronomer)
                  • Pere Porta Roca
                    ... From: Ian Paul To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM Subject: Re: [revelation-list]
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 10 9:47 PM
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
                      To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Morning star



                      This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
                      actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the



                      Yes... but you do not answer my question: is it logical to translate
                      'morning star'? Would it not be better translated as 'the early morning
                      star' or as 'the dawn star'?

                      Pere
                    • Upham family
                      Dear Pere, The received text adds the words, and early which is found in only13 Greek manuscripts. The vast majority of the handwritten manuscripts, more
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 12 8:13 AM
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                        Dear Pere,
                        The received text adds the words, "and early" which is found in only13 Greek
                        manuscripts.
                        The vast majority of the handwritten manuscripts, more than 250, do not
                        contain these words
                        and this includes the 3 oldest manuscripts, Aleph, A and C. The only
                        aditional reference for
                        moring star in the New Testament is found in Revelation 2:28. Sincerely,
                        T.Upham

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Pere Porta Roca" <pporta@...>
                        To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 11:47 PM
                        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Morning star


                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
                        > To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2003 6:14 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Morning star
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
                        > actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yes... but you do not answer my question: is it logical to translate
                        > 'morning star'? Would it not be better translated as 'the early morning
                        > star' or as 'the dawn star'?
                        >
                        > Pere
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • Ian Paul
                        ... and Pere replied ... But there is an important issue here regarding methodology in translation and semantic fields. The text appears to be referring (in
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 15 3:00 PM
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                          I said:

                          >This is not strictly true. Venus (commonly called the morning star) is
                          >actually visible between daybreak and the rising of the sun over the

                          and Pere replied

                          >Yes... but you do not answer my question: is it logical to translate
                          >'morning star'? Would it not be better translated as 'the early morning
                          >star' or as 'the dawn star'?

                          But there is an important issue here regarding methodology in translation
                          and semantic fields. The text appears to be referring (in the context of a
                          metaphor) to that which in English is already known as 'the morning star.'
                          So we had better translate it into English as 'the morning star'--even if we
                          think that is not a good English description of what it refers to!

                          Ian Paul
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