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Ezekiel

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  • Joel and Rachel Wilhelm
    I noticed something in Ezekiel that I think has ramifications for the interpretation of Revelation. In Ezekiel 8 in particular the prophet sees a manlike
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 15, 2003
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      I noticed something in Ezekiel that I think has ramifications for the interpretation of Revelation. In Ezekiel 8 in particular the prophet sees a manlike being--with similarities to the exalted Christ in Revelation--and the Spirit brings him in visions to Jerusalem. What he then sees are actual events going on in his present, not merely symbolic views of ages to come. I wonder if the experience of Ezekiel sheds light on the book of Revelation and John's experience? Ezekiel saw real people, individuals, acting in time, not mere symbolic entitities. I wonder if the default in examing John's own visions should be the template of Ezekiel, meaning that John is describing individuals and events that are concrete, not idealistic concepts?
       
      J.M. Wilhelm
      ad fontes
      Come, everyone who thirsts, come to the waters;
      and he who has no money,
      come, buy and eat!
      Come, buy wine and milk
      without money and without price.
      Isaiah 55:1 
       
       
    • Edgar Krentz
      ... This is one of the most sensible submissions to this list in some time. It also correlates well with the nature of apocalyptic--and John was writing a
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 16, 2003
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        Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel
        At 3:20 PM -0700 4/15/03, Joel and Rachel Wilhelm wrote:
        I noticed something in Ezekiel that I think has ramifications for the interpretation of Revelation. In Ezekiel 8 in particular the prophet sees a manlike being--with similarities to the exalted Christ in Revelation--and the Spirit brings him in visions to Jerusalem. What he then sees are actual events going on in his present, not merely symbolic views of ages to come. I wonder if the experience of Ezekiel sheds light on the book of Revelation and John's experience? Ezekiel saw real people, individuals, acting in time, not mere symbolic entitities. I wonder if the default in examing John's own visions should be the template of Ezekiel, meaning that John is describing individuals and events that are concrete, not idealistic concepts?
         
        J.M. Wilhelm

        This is one of the most sensible submissions to this list in some time. It also correlates well with the nature of apocalyptic--and John was writing a message to first century residents  of the province of Asia, not 21st century Christians. We need to with the Apocalypse what we do with Paul, read other people's correspondence to see if there is a message for us that can be inferred.
        -- 
        
        ****************************************************************
        Edgar Krentz
        Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
        Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
        1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
        Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
        Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
        home e-mail: ekrentz@...
        ------------------------------------------------------------
        GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
        "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
        ***************************************************************
      • Ed Garcia
        I must disagree somewhat with both Mr. Krantz and the Wilhelms. Prophetic writings are not only of value and import to their immediate audience but for future
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 17, 2003
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          Message
          I must disagree somewhat with both Mr. Krantz and the Wilhelms. Prophetic writings are not only of value and import to their immediate audience but for future generations as well. We attempt to study prophetic messages in the historical context in which they were written but these same writings also have meaning for future generations. In some instances the prophet himself is not fully aware of the meaning of his prophecy, a perfect example is Daniel 12:9 "And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end."
           
          Ezekiel 8 is an interesting passage but I would not use it as a template for all prophecy, or all of Revelation.
           
          I am sure that Revelation provided comfort and encouragement to its original recipients but I also do not think that it's message has been entirely fulfilled either.
           
           
          Ed Garcia
          Kansas
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Edgar Krentz [mailto:ekrentz@...]
          Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 11:49 AM
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

          At 3:20 PM -0700 4/15/03, Joel and Rachel Wilhelm wrote:
          I noticed something in Ezekiel that I think has ramifications for the interpretation of Revelation. In Ezekiel 8 in particular the prophet sees a manlike being--with similarities to the exalted Christ in Revelation--and the Spirit brings him in visions to Jerusalem. What he then sees are actual events going on in his present, not merely symbolic views of ages to come. I wonder if the experience of Ezekiel sheds light on the book of Revelation and John's experience? Ezekiel saw real people, individuals, acting in time, not mere symbolic entitities. I wonder if the default in examing John's own visions should be the template of Ezekiel, meaning that John is describing individuals and events that are concrete, not idealistic concepts?
           
          J.M. Wilhelm

          This is one of the most sensible submissions to this list in some time. It also correlates well with the nature of apocalyptic--and John was writing a message to first century residents  of the province of Asia, not 21st century Christians. We need to with the Apocalypse what we do with Paul, read other people's correspondence to see if there is a message for us that can be inferred.
          -- 
          
          ****************************************************************
          Edgar Krentz
          Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
          Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
          1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
          Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
          Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
          home e-mail: ekrentz@...
          ------------------------------------------------------------
          GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
          "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
          ***************************************************************


          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        • Joel and Rachel Wilhelm
          Re: [revelation-list] EzekielProf. Krentz and list, I am afraid I will cause you to withdraw your view of my post as sensible. I agree that John wrote to his
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 23, 2003
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            Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel
            Prof. Krentz and list,
             
            I am afraid I will cause you to withdraw your view of my post as 'sensible.' I agree that John wrote to his day and age and that the letter has ramifications for then. But what I was indicating is that Ezekiel in a supernatural way visited Jerusalem in his own time and saw actual people. Could not John also see future people and events in the Spirit? Why do we a priori rule out that someone in the past could see a very real future?
             
            J. M. Wilhelm
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:49 AM
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

            At 3:20 PM -0700 4/15/03, Joel and Rachel Wilhelm wrote:
            I noticed something in Ezekiel that I think has ramifications for the interpretation of Revelation. In Ezekiel 8 in particular the prophet sees a manlike being--with similarities to the exalted Christ in Revelation--and the Spirit brings him in visions to Jerusalem. What he then sees are actual events going on in his present, not merely symbolic views of ages to come. I wonder if the experience of Ezekiel sheds light on the book of Revelation and John's experience? Ezekiel saw real people, individuals, acting in time, not mere symbolic entitities. I wonder if the default in examing John's own visions should be the template of Ezekiel, meaning that John is describing individuals and events that are concrete, not idealistic concepts?
             
            J.M. Wilhelm

            This is one of the most sensible submissions to this list in some time. It also correlates well with the nature of apocalyptic--and John was writing a message to first century residents  of the province of Asia, not 21st century Christians. We need to with the Apocalypse what we do with Paul, read other people's correspondence to see if there is a message for us that can be inferred.
            -- 
            
            ****************************************************************
            Edgar Krentz
            Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
            Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
            1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
            Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
            Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
            home e-mail: ekrentz@...
            ------------------------------------------------------------
            GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
            "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
            ***************************************************************


            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          • Don K
            Re: [revelation-list] EzekielI personally have no problem with the idea that John was envisioning real events, in imagery of course. My problem is that when we
            Message 5 of 15 , Apr 23, 2003
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              Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel
              I personally have no problem with the idea that John was envisioning real events, in imagery of course. My problem is that when we extrapolate the Apocalypse into the distant future, from John, or for that matter from us, we are violating the temporal parameters established by the One who gave the revelation to the visionary.
              While it is somewhat customary to either ignore the time indicators of the book, or to mitigate them into virtual meaninglessness, it strikes me that it is a wiser course of action to seek the true meaning of the apocalypsis within the sitz em leben of John's first century world.
              In my book Who Is This Babylon? I spend considerable time examining the various attempts to mitigate these chronological issues.
              Don K.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 12:58 PM
              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

              Prof. Krentz and list,
               
              I am afraid I will cause you to withdraw your view of my post as 'sensible.' I agree that John wrote to his day and age and that the letter has ramifications for then. But what I was indicating is that Ezekiel in a supernatural way visited Jerusalem in his own time and saw actual people. Could not John also see future people and events in the Spirit? Why do we a priori rule out that someone in the past could see a very real future?
               
              J. M. Wilhelm
               
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:49 AM
              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

              At 3:20 PM -0700 4/15/03, Joel and Rachel Wilhelm wrote:
              I noticed something in Ezekiel that I think has ramifications for the interpretation of Revelation. In Ezekiel 8 in particular the prophet sees a manlike being--with similarities to the exalted Christ in Revelation--and the Spirit brings him in visions to Jerusalem. What he then sees are actual events going on in his present, not merely symbolic views of ages to come. I wonder if the experience of Ezekiel sheds light on the book of Revelation and John's experience? Ezekiel saw real people, individuals, acting in time, not mere symbolic entitities. I wonder if the default in examing John's own visions should be the template of Ezekiel, meaning that John is describing individuals and events that are concrete, not idealistic concepts?
               
              J.M. Wilhelm

              This is one of the most sensible submissions to this list in some time. It also correlates well with the nature of apocalyptic--and John was writing a message to first century residents  of the province of Asia, not 21st century Christians. We need to with the Apocalypse what we do with Paul, read other people's correspondence to see if there is a message for us that can be inferred.
              -- 
              
              ****************************************************************
              Edgar Krentz
              Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
              Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
              1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
              Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
              Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
              home e-mail: ekrentz@...
              ------------------------------------------------------------
              GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
              "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
              ***************************************************************


              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            • Edgar Krentz
              ... I agree with what Don just wrote above. Rev. itself says it is about what will happen EN TACHEI, that is, quickly. By no stretch of language can that be
              Message 6 of 15 , Apr 24, 2003
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                Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel
                At 3:48 PM -0500 4/23/03, Don K wrote:
                I personally have no problem with the idea that John was envisioning real events, in imagery of course. My problem is that when we extrapolate the Apocalypse into the distant future, from John, or for that matter from us, we are violating the temporal parameters established by the One who gave the revelation to the visionary.
                While it is somewhat customary to either ignore the time indicators of the book, or to mitigate them into virtual meaninglessness, it strikes me that it is a wiser course of action to seek the true meaning of the apocalypsis within the sitz em leben of John's first century world.
                In my book Who Is This Babylon? I spend considerable time examining the various attempts to mitigate these chronological issues.
                Don K.

                I agree with what Don just wrote above. Rev. itself says it is about what will happen EN TACHEI, that is, "quickly." By no stretch of language can that be made to apply to events two millenia later!

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Joel and Rachel Wilhelm
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 12:58 PM
                Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

                Prof. Krentz and list,
                 
                I am afraid I will cause you to withdraw your view of my post as 'sensible.' I agree that John wrote to his day and age and that the letter has ramifications for then. But what I was indicating is that Ezekiel in a supernatural way visited Jerusalem in his own time and saw actual people. Could not John also see future people and events in the Spirit? Why do we a priori rule out that someone in the past could see a very real future?
                 
                J. M. Wilhelm
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Edgar Krentz
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:49 AM
                Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

                At 3:20 PM -0700 4/15/03, Joel and Rachel Wilhelm wrote:
                I noticed something in Ezekiel that I think has ramifications for the interpretation of Revelation. In Ezekiel 8 in particular the prophet sees a manlike being--with similarities to the exalted Christ in Revelation--and the Spirit brings him in visions to Jerusalem. What he then sees are actual events going on in his present, not merely symbolic views of ages to come. I wonder if the experience of Ezekiel sheds light on the book of Revelation and John's experience? Ezekiel saw real people, individuals, acting in time, not mere symbolic entitities. I wonder if the default in examing John's own visions should be the template of Ezekiel, meaning that John is describing individuals and events that are concrete, not idealistic concepts?
                 
                J.M. Wilhelm

                This is one of the most sensible submissions to this list in some time. It also correlates well with the nature of apocalyptic--and John was writing a message to first century residents  of the province of Asia, not 21st century Christians. We need to with the Apocalypse what we do with Paul, read other people's correspondence to see if there is a message for us that can be inferred.
                --
                ****************************************************************
                Edgar Krentz
                Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
                home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                ------------------------------------------------------------
                GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                ***************************************************************


                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


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                -- 
                
                ****************************************************************
                Edgar Krentz
                Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
                home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                ------------------------------------------------------------
                GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                ***************************************************************
              • Alan Fuller
                Don K., ... distant future, from John, or for that matter from us, we are violating the temporal parameters established by the One who gave the revelation to
                Message 7 of 15 , Apr 24, 2003
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                  Don K.,

                  You write:
                  >>My problem is that when we extrapolate the Apocalypse into the
                  distant future, from John, or for that matter from us, we are
                  violating the temporal parameters established by the One who gave the
                  revelation to the visionary.
                  While it is somewhat customary to either ignore the time indicators
                  of the book, or to mitigate them into virtual meaninglessness, it
                  strikes me that it is a wiser course of action to seek the true
                  meaning of the apocalypsis within the sitz em leben of John's first
                  century world.<<

                  I assume you mean "soon" and "quickly," as Edgar pointed out. What
                  meaning do these words have in the first century world, and what do
                  we base our understanding on?

                  What method of interpretation was used to understand these things in
                  the first century world?

                  Thanks,
                  Alan F.
                  Texas


                  --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Don K" <dkpret@b...> wrote:
                  > Re: [revelation-list] EzekielI personally have no problem with the
                  idea that John was envisioning real events, in imagery of course. My
                  problem
                • Georg S. Adamsen
                  Re: [revelation-list] EzekielI do not agree. The temporal parameters are less important and more open to discussion (also more than Professor Krentz asserts)
                  Message 8 of 15 , Apr 24, 2003
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                    Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel
                    I do not agree. The temporal parameters are less important and more open to discussion (also more than Professor Krentz asserts) than is the main motif and central event(s) of what Revelation narrates. I have more detailed analyses of the whole issue and the various temporal indicators in my thesis, which, unfortunately, is not yet published.
                     
                    Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
                    The Lutheran School of Theology in Aarhus, Denmark
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Edgar Krentz [mailto:ekrentz@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 3:59 PM
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

                    At 3:48 PM -0500 4/23/03, Don K wrote:
                    I personally have no problem with the idea that John was envisioning real events, in imagery of course. My problem is that when we extrapolate the Apocalypse into the distant future, from John, or for that matter from us, we are violating the temporal parameters established by the One who gave the revelation to the visionary.
                    While it is somewhat customary to either ignore the time indicators of the book, or to mitigate them into virtual meaninglessness, it strikes me that it is a wiser course of action to seek the true meaning of the apocalypsis within the sitz em leben of John's first century world.
                    In my book Who Is This Babylon? I spend considerable time examining the various attempts to mitigate these chronological issues.
                    Don K.

                    I agree with what Don just wrote above. Rev. itself says it is about what will happen EN TACHEI, that is, "quickly." By no stretch of language can that be made to apply to events two millenia later!
                  • Ed Garcia
                    I do believe that the Apocalypse was of value to John s contemporaries but I also believe that being prophecy there are predictive sections that have yet to
                    Message 9 of 15 , Apr 24, 2003
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                      Message
                      I do believe that the Apocalypse was of value to John's contemporaries but I also believe that being prophecy there are predictive sections that have yet to come to pass. I do not believe that it is wholly one or the other. Concerning EN TACHEI, I will point out that the word the word for "quickly" appears in several places in Revelation. Consider especially 22:12 and 22:20 which speak of Jesus coming quickly - here the wording for "coming quickly" is ERCHOMAI TACHU - if I remember correctly.
                       
                      Ed Garcia
                      Kansa
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Edgar Krentz [mailto:ekrentz@...]
                      Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 8:59 AM
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

                      At 3:48 PM -0500 4/23/03, Don K wrote:
                      I personally have no problem with the idea that John was envisioning real events, in imagery of course. My problem is that when we extrapolate the Apocalypse into the distant future, from John, or for that matter from us, we are violating the temporal parameters established by the One who gave the revelation to the visionary.
                      While it is somewhat customary to either ignore the time indicators of the book, or to mitigate them into virtual meaninglessness, it strikes me that it is a wiser course of action to seek the true meaning of the apocalypsis within the sitz em leben of John's first century world.
                      In my book Who Is This Babylon? I spend considerable time examining the various attempts to mitigate these chronological issues.
                      Don K.

                      I agree with what Don just wrote above. Rev. itself says it is about what will happen EN TACHEI, that is, "quickly." By no stretch of language can that be made to apply to events two millenia later!

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Joel and Rachel Wilhelm
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2003 12:58 PM
                      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

                      Prof. Krentz and list,
                       
                      I am afraid I will cause you to withdraw your view of my post as 'sensible.' I agree that John wrote to his day and age and that the letter has ramifications for then. But what I was indicating is that Ezekiel in a supernatural way visited Jerusalem in his own time and saw actual people. Could not John also see future people and events in the Spirit? Why do we a priori rule out that someone in the past could see a very real future?
                       
                      J. M. Wilhelm
                       
                       

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Edgar Krentz
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 16, 2003 9:49 AM
                      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Ezekiel

                      At 3:20 PM -0700 4/15/03, Joel and Rachel Wilhelm wrote:
                      I noticed something in Ezekiel that I think has ramifications for the interpretation of Revelation. In Ezekiel 8 in particular the prophet sees a manlike being--with similarities to the exalted Christ in Revelation--and the Spirit brings him in visions to Jerusalem. What he then sees are actual events going on in his present, not merely symbolic views of ages to come. I wonder if the experience of Ezekiel sheds light on the book of Revelation and John's experience? Ezekiel saw real people, individuals, acting in time, not mere symbolic entitities. I wonder if the default in examing John's own visions should be the template of Ezekiel, meaning that John is describing individuals and events that are concrete, not idealistic concepts?

                       
                      J.M. Wilhelm

                      This is one of the most sensible submissions to this list in some time. It also correlates well with the nature of apocalyptic--and John was writing a message to first century residents  of the province of Asia, not 21st century Christians. We need to with the Apocalypse what we do with Paul, read other people's correspondence to see if there is a message for us that can be inferred.
                      --
                      ****************************************************************
                      Edgar Krentz
                      Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                      Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                      1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                      Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                      Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
                      home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                      ------------------------------------------------------------
                      GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                      "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                      ***************************************************************


                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                      -- 
                      
                      ****************************************************************
                      Edgar Krentz
                      Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                      Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                      1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                      Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                      Office e-mail: ekrentz@...
                      home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                      ------------------------------------------------------------
                      GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                      "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                      ***************************************************************


                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    • Reidar Kristiansen
                      The vision is from him who is,was and is to come,therefore the imagery also could be from the past. Reidar Kristiansen rki@start.no ... Få din egen
                      Message 10 of 15 , Apr 24, 2003
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                        The vision is from him who is,was and is to come,therefore the imagery also
                        could be from the past.


                        Reidar Kristiansen
                        rki@...

                        ------------------------------------------------------------
                        Få din egen @...-adresse gratis på http://www.start.no/
                      • Reidar Kristiansen
                        The vision is from him who is,was and is to come,therefore the imagery also could be from the past. Reidar Kristiansen rki@start.no ... Få din egen
                        Message 11 of 15 , Apr 24, 2003
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                          The vision is from him who is,was and is to come,therefore the imagery also
                          could be from the past.


                          Reidar Kristiansen
                          rki@...

                          ------------------------------------------------------------
                          Få din egen @...-adresse gratis på http://www.start.no/
                        • Reidar Kristiansen
                          The vision is from him who is,was and is to come,therefore the imagery also could be from the past. Reidar Kristiansen rki@start.no ... Få din egen
                          Message 12 of 15 , Apr 24, 2003
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                            The vision is from him who is,was and is to come,therefore the imagery also
                            could be from the past.


                            Reidar Kristiansen
                            rki@...

                            ------------------------------------------------------------
                            Få din egen @...-adresse gratis på http://www.start.no/


                            ------------------------------------------------------------
                            Få din egen @...-adresse gratis på http://www.start.no/
                          • Reidar Kristiansen
                            The vision is from him who is,was and is to come,therefore the imagery also could be from the past. Reidar Kristiansen rki@start.no ... Få din egen
                            Message 13 of 15 , Apr 24, 2003
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                              The vision is from him who is,was and is to come,therefore the imagery also
                              could be from the past.


                              Reidar Kristiansen
                              rki@...

                              ------------------------------------------------------------
                              Få din egen @...-adresse gratis på http://www.start.no/


                              ------------------------------------------------------------
                              Få din egen @...-adresse gratis på http://www.start.no/
                            • Don K
                              Alan, I have been out of pocket, in Texas, for several days. My apologies for the delay. Further, I am preparing for a seminar in North Carolina, with four
                              Message 14 of 15 , Apr 28, 2003
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                                Alan, I have been out of pocket, in Texas, for several days. My apologies
                                for the delay. Further, I am preparing for a seminar in North Carolina, with
                                four major speeches, and will not be able to respond to anything for a bit.
                                Hopefully, my thoughts below will also cover some of the inquiries from Ed
                                Garcia, and perhaps, to an extent, by George as well.

                                In regards to your question, we know that the words mean that the events
                                were near, and to occur soon by the normal means of communication and
                                hermeneutic.
                                By observing the normal, common (koine) meaning and usage of the words.
                                By observing the context of their usage.
                                By the lexical aids.
                                It has always struck me as a bit strange that when we observe the use of
                                mello, tachos, engus, and even en taxei, with their cognates, in
                                non-eschatological contexts, that there is virtually no debate about the
                                temporal imminence indicated by these terms. We seldom if ever hear anyone
                                argue, for instance, that when the Jews passover was at hand (engus), or
                                when "the time of the fruit drew near" (engizo, Mt. 21:34), this did not
                                mean a temporal imminence. Examples could be multiplied. The point is that
                                these are temporal expressions. (Engus of course also expresses spatial
                                proximity, but the idea of nearness is still to the fore.)
                                There is another element here, that I see virtually ignored in the
                                literature, and that is the temporal contrasts.
                                We often find expressions that prophetic events were far off (Numbers
                                24:17f; Hebrews 11:13-16), and not near (Daniel 8:26; 12:4). The New
                                Testament writers say that the Old Covenant prophets were told that the last
                                days events they were foretelling were not for their times. However, the New
                                Covenant prophets were told, and said that what the Old prophets anticipated
                                was being fulfilled and was about to be consummated (1 Peter 1:10f). In
                                Revelation, for instance, the Danielic predictions serve as the blueprint of
                                the consummative events being foretold by John. What Daniel was told was not
                                near--and thus he was instructed to seal the book-- was now so near in
                                John's day that John was told not to seal the book. I do not find anywhere
                                in the Apocalypse that John communicated the idea that the events he was
                                foretelling were not near.
                                If we can argue that "at hand" does not mean near, what will we argue that
                                "not at hand" means? If quickly does not mean soon, then does "not near"
                                mean it could happen very soon?
                                These are but a few of the reasons why I disagree with the posit that the
                                chronological indicators of Revelation are not all that important. The book
                                is rife with indications that its fulfillment was near. The book is
                                bracketed with warnings of the imminent consummation, and calls for ethical
                                conduct in light of that soon coming climax. There is more on this than I
                                have time to develop, but this issue alone emphasizes my point well, I
                                think.
                                Well, I have gone on long enough.
                                Thanks for your thoughts and inquiry,
                                Don K. Preston

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Alan Fuller" <rocsy@...>
                                To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 11:48 AM
                                Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Ezekiel


                                >
                                > Don K.,
                                >
                                > You write:
                                > >>My problem is that when we extrapolate the Apocalypse into the
                                > distant future, from John, or for that matter from us, we are
                                > violating the temporal parameters established by the One who gave the
                                > revelation to the visionary.
                                > While it is somewhat customary to either ignore the time indicators
                                > of the book, or to mitigate them into virtual meaninglessness, it
                                > strikes me that it is a wiser course of action to seek the true
                                > meaning of the apocalypsis within the sitz em leben of John's first
                                > century world.<<
                                >
                                > I assume you mean "soon" and "quickly," as Edgar pointed out. What
                                > meaning do these words have in the first century world, and what do
                                > we base our understanding on?
                                >
                                > What method of interpretation was used to understand these things in
                                > the first century world?
                                >
                                > Thanks,
                                > Alan F.
                                > Texas
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Don K" <dkpret@b...> wrote:
                                > > Re: [revelation-list] EzekielI personally have no problem with the
                                > idea that John was envisioning real events, in imagery of course. My
                                > problem
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                >
                                >
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                                >
                              • Alan Fuller
                                Don, Thank you for taking time to make an excellent response to my post. It doesn t seem strange to me to view the mentioned words in a normal way in
                                Message 15 of 15 , Apr 30, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Don,

                                  Thank you for taking time to make an excellent response to my post.

                                  It doesn't seem strange to me to view the mentioned words in a normal
                                  way in non-eschatological contexts, but view them in another way in
                                  eschatalogical terms. Then again, when we use similar words today
                                  we're usually not, if ever, referring to a span of several years.
                                  whether a span of several years should be considered more temporal in
                                  regards to prophecy than several thousand I'm not sure. I think the
                                  context they're used in is the most important thing in eschatalogical
                                  terms.

                                  I think we can also find expressions in the OT that make prophetic
                                  events sound near (Isa 46:13 51:5 61:11, compare Ro 1:17 3:21-26 10:3-
                                  15 ).

                                  I think we do well to look at Daniel in relation to the "end times."
                                  We are told several times that the vision in Daniel eight is for the
                                  end times (8:17 19 26). So if we accept the traditional meaning and
                                  interpretation of Daniel eight the end times started about 550 BC.
                                  That's about the same time that Daniel eight claims to be written.
                                  That doesn't seem like many days to me.

                                  Daniel 12:4 asserts that the last vision of Daniel won't be
                                  understood until the end. Is it understood? If so when was the end
                                  where it became understood? Also, if it is understood I would like
                                  for the ones who understand it to give me a better explanation so
                                  that I might understand all of it myself.

                                  The questions you ask about "near" and "at hand" deserve a closer
                                  look. But I'm not yet convinced the words mean anything at all in
                                  and eschatological context. Not yet anyway, but I look forward to
                                  futher discussions.

                                  Again, thank you for your time.

                                  Alan F.

                                  --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Don K" <dkpret@b...> wrote:
                                  > Alan, I have been out of pocket, in Texas, for several days. My
                                  apologies
                                  > for the delay. Further, I am preparing for a seminar in North
                                  Carolina, with
                                  > four major speeches, and will not be able to respond to anything
                                  for a bit.
                                  > Hopefully, my thoughts below will also cover some of the inquiries
                                  from Ed
                                  > Garcia, and perhaps, to an extent, by George as well.
                                  >
                                  > In regards to your question, we know that the words mean that the
                                  events
                                  > were near, and to occur soon by the normal means of communication
                                  and
                                  > hermeneutic.
                                  > By observing the normal, common (koine) meaning and usage of the
                                  words.
                                  > By observing the context of their usage.
                                  > By the lexical aids.
                                  > It has always struck me as a bit strange that when we observe the
                                  use of
                                  > mello, tachos, engus, and even en taxei, with their cognates, in
                                  > non-eschatological contexts, that there is virtually no debate
                                  about the
                                  > temporal imminence indicated by these terms. We seldom if ever hear
                                  anyone
                                  > argue, for instance, that when the Jews passover was at hand
                                  (engus), or
                                  > when "the time of the fruit drew near" (engizo, Mt. 21:34), this
                                  did not
                                  > mean a temporal imminence. Examples could be multiplied. The point
                                  is that
                                  > these are temporal expressions. (Engus of course also expresses
                                  spatial
                                  > proximity, but the idea of nearness is still to the fore.)
                                  > There is another element here, that I see virtually ignored in the
                                  > literature, and that is the temporal contrasts.
                                  > We often find expressions that prophetic events were far off
                                  (Numbers
                                  > 24:17f; Hebrews 11:13-16), and not near (Daniel 8:26; 12:4). The New
                                  > Testament writers say that the Old Covenant prophets were told that
                                  the last
                                  > days events they were foretelling were not for their times.
                                  However, the New
                                  > Covenant prophets were told, and said that what the Old prophets
                                  anticipated
                                  > was being fulfilled and was about to be consummated (1 Peter
                                  1:10f). In
                                  > Revelation, for instance, the Danielic predictions serve as the
                                  blueprint of
                                  > the consummative events being foretold by John. What Daniel was
                                  told was not
                                  > near--and thus he was instructed to seal the book-- was now so near
                                  in
                                  > John's day that John was told not to seal the book. I do not find
                                  anywhere
                                  > in the Apocalypse that John communicated the idea that the events
                                  he was
                                  > foretelling were not near.
                                  > If we can argue that "at hand" does not mean near, what will we
                                  argue that
                                  > "not at hand" means? If quickly does not mean soon, then does "not
                                  near"
                                  > mean it could happen very soon?
                                  > These are but a few of the reasons why I disagree with the posit
                                  that the
                                  > chronological indicators of Revelation are not all that important.
                                  The book
                                  > is rife with indications that its fulfillment was near. The book is
                                  > bracketed with warnings of the imminent consummation, and calls for
                                  ethical
                                  > conduct in light of that soon coming climax. There is more on this
                                  than I
                                  > have time to develop, but this issue alone emphasizes my point
                                  well, I
                                  > think.
                                  > Well, I have gone on long enough.
                                  > Thanks for your thoughts and inquiry,
                                  > Don K. Preston
                                  >
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