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Hesoid Theogony line 38

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  • c.s.bartholomew
    Was glancing over a few lines of Hesiod s Theogony and ran into something that sounded familiar. Theogony line 38 . . . TA T EONTA TA T ESSOMENA PRO T EONTA
    Message 1 of 3 , Apr 3 8:11 PM
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      Was glancing over a few lines of Hesiod's Theogony and ran into something
      that sounded familiar.

      Theogony line 38
      . . . TA T' EONTA TA T' ESSOMENA PRO T' EONTA

      Rev. 1:4,8 (4:8)
      . . . hO WN KAI hO HN KAI hO ERCOMENOS

      Turns out that this pattern is well attested in Greek literature. See D.Aune
      (WBC, Revelation, v1, p.113) for details.

      greetings, Clay

      --
      Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
      Three Tree Point
      P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
    • Georg S. Adamsen
      Perhaps. However, despite the comments by Professor Aune and many others schoalrs, I doubt that this is really the same pattern. The tripartite formula in
      Message 2 of 3 , Apr 16 7:45 AM
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        Perhaps. However, despite the comments by Professor Aune and many others
        schoalrs, I doubt that this is really the same pattern. The tripartite
        formula in Revelation 1,4.8 and 4,8 and the bipartite formula in 11,17
        and 16,5 differ from the one in Hesiod. I would say that hO ERCOMENOS
        refers to the coming of God. This is the reason why it is used in ch. 1
        and 4, but not in the hymns in 11,17 and 16,5 as these hymns celebrate
        the coming of God and Christ. I think that already Jorns (Das hymnische
        Evangelium) argued for this or a similar interpretation (if my memory
        serves me correctly).

        If this is so, then I think we should interpret the first part of the
        formula as a reference to creation and the second as a notion of God's
        eternal existence. Therefore, I think that at least some so-called
        parallels are not real parallels at all. However, I have not studied the
        alleged parallels in any detail, so I may be wrong.

        Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
        The Lutheran School of Theology in Aarhus

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: c.s.bartholomew [mailto:c.s.bartholomew@...]
        > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 6:12 AM
        > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [revelation-list] Hesoid Theogony line 38
        >
        >
        > Was glancing over a few lines of Hesiod's Theogony and ran
        > into something
        > that sounded familiar.
        >
        > Theogony line 38
        > . . . TA T' EONTA TA T' ESSOMENA PRO T' EONTA
        >
        > Rev. 1:4,8 (4:8)
        > . . . hO WN KAI hO HN KAI hO ERCOMENOS
        >
        > Turns out that this pattern is well attested in Greek
        > literature. See D.Aune
        > (WBC, Revelation, v1, p.113) for details.
        >
        > greetings, Clay
        >
        > --
        > Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
        > Three Tree Point
        > P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
        >
        >
        >
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      • c.s.bartholomew
        Georg, In Homer s Iliad 1:70 we find the same wording as the Theogony l. 38: . . . TA T EONTA TA T ESSOMENA PRO T EONTA In both the Iliad and the Theogony
        Message 3 of 3 , Apr 16 12:52 PM
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          Georg,

          In Homer's Iliad 1:70 we find the same wording as the Theogony l. 38:
          . . . TA T' EONTA TA T' ESSOMENA PRO T' EONTA

          In both the Iliad and the Theogony the three fold temporal reference is
          connected with knowledge and speaking. In Homer it is the knowledge
          (prophetic) of Calchas and in Hesoid the singing of the Muses. Therefore the
          only semantic parallel aspect to Rev. 1:4,8 (4:8) ... hO WN KAI hO HN KAI
          hO ERCOMENOS is the three fold temporal reference.

          I haven't looked at the hymnic material addressed to Zeus, but I suspect
          that the parallels there are more extensive.

          Parallels need to be sorted into different levels of correspondence, verbal,
          semantic and so forth. Verbal parallels may not be semantic parallels and
          vise versa. Semantic parallels which relate to cultural universals like the
          temporal categories of past, present, future, do not require literary
          borrowing or any other sort of dependence. However, if the Hymns to Zeus
          show remarkable similarities (do they?) then one is tempted to speculate
          about dependencies. It does, however, remain speculation.

          greetings, Clay


          on 4/16/03 7:45 AM, Georg S. Adamsen wrote

          > Perhaps. However, despite the comments by Professor Aune and many others
          > schoalrs, I doubt that this is really the same pattern. The tripartite
          > formula in Revelation 1,4.8 and 4,8 and the bipartite formula in 11,17
          > and 16,5 differ from the one in Hesiod. I would say that hO ERCOMENOS
          > refers to the coming of God. This is the reason why it is used in ch. 1
          > and 4, but not in the hymns in 11,17 and 16,5 as these hymns celebrate
          > the coming of God and Christ. I think that already Jorns (Das hymnische
          > Evangelium) argued for this or a similar interpretation (if my memory
          > serves me correctly).
          >
          > If this is so, then I think we should interpret the first part of the
          > formula as a reference to creation and the second as a notion of God's
          > eternal existence. Therefore, I think that at least some so-called
          > parallels are not real parallels at all. However, I have not studied the
          > alleged parallels in any detail, so I may be wrong.
          >
          > Dr. Georg S. Adamsen
          > The Lutheran School of Theology in Aarhus
          >
          >> -----Original Message-----
          >> From: c.s.bartholomew [mailto:c.s.bartholomew@...]
          >> Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 6:12 AM
          >> To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          >> Subject: [revelation-list] Hesoid Theogony line 38
          >>
          >>
          >> Was glancing over a few lines of Hesiod's Theogony and ran
          >> into something
          >> that sounded familiar.
          >>
          >> Theogony line 38
          >> . . . TA T' EONTA TA T' ESSOMENA PRO T' EONTA
          >>
          >> Rev. 1:4,8 (4:8)
          >> . . . hO WN KAI hO HN KAI hO ERCOMENOS
          >>
          >> Turns out that this pattern is well attested in Greek
          >> literature. See D.Aune
          >> (WBC, Revelation, v1, p.113) for details.
          >>
          >> greetings, Clay
          >>
          >> --
          >> Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
          >> Three Tree Point
          >> P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
          >>
          >>
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