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Re: Rev. date

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  • kymhsm
    Dear Mark,
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 31 6:24 PM
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      Dear Mark,

      <<<If you could show that Revelation was quoted by New
      Testament authors, that would really make your case for
      Revelation being written even earlier, such as in 62 A.D. as you
      suggested.>>>

      This is precisely so. If Paul and Peter – assuming we accept
      their authorship of the letters in their names – died in 64 as per
      tradition, then for them to have quoted the Revelation means that
      it must have preceded that date.

      <<< John A.T. Robinson discusses some of these parallel
      themes in his book. (1) He cites many similar themes in Jude,
      2nd Peter, and Revelation.>>>

      While Robinson argued for the completion of the NT before AD
      70, if I remember rightly, he still places the Revelation last. The
      similar themes he notes do indicate that the books were written
      around the same time, but nothing more for certain. I believe the
      evidence is that many books indicate a familiarity with the
      Revelation. If I may, I will repeat my previous post but indicate
      some of the passages that show this familiarity.


      [[[I have argued that 1 Peter, 1 John and Ephesians were the
      immediate responses of Peter, John and Paul, respectively, to
      the Revelation to encourage the believers in the face of the
      impending tribulation.]]]

      I believe that John sought the opinion / verification / support of
      Paul and Peter and the three agreed to write (circular) letters to
      encourage the church in the face of what was expected, i.e. the
      tribulation preceding the return of Christ. Their letters were likely
      to have been distributed together, particularly around Asia.

      1 PETER – known by some as an epistle of suffering was
      addressed to Asia (and other places) and warns of a short
      period of suffering expected of the brotherhood throughout the
      world (5:9-10, c.f. 1:6; 4:12). The end of all things was at hand
      (4:7) thought Peter and the time of suffering would be terminated
      with their restoration to `eternal glory in Christ' (5:10). Peter wrote
      from Babylon (5:13). Babylon is used in an allegorical sense
      seven times in the NT, here and six times in the Revelation. In
      the context of the Revelation, Peter knew where he was when he
      wrote (i.e. Rome).

      1 JOHN – John knew they were living not in the last days but `the
      last hour' (1:18) and goes on there to speak of the antichrist and
      the many antichrists, the presence of the latter being a portend of
      the coming of the former. This was a time of great deception
      (4:1f)

      EPHESIANS – Historically known to have been addressed to
      both Ephesus and Laodicea, both churches of the Revelation
      (Rev 2-3) and probably to other places, it is most notable here in
      6:10ff, "For we are not contending against flesh and blood…"

      All three letters provide great exhortations in the major themes of
      the gospel, which must have been their primary intention.
      Interestingly, and some commentators mention this, there is a
      strong connection between Ephesians and 1 Peter. There are
      similar terms (e.g. the greeting of 1:3 in both; `before the
      foundation of the world' Eph 1:4; 1 Pet 1;20; c.f. Rev 13:8; 17:8)
      and, especially in the first two chapters, structural similarities.
      The reason for this, I believe, is that Paul sent Peter a draft – if
      not the full text – of Ephesians to help him in the writing of his
      letter. Silvanus (Paul's co-worker) would have taken it to Peter
      with that apostle's copy of the Revelation (1 Pet 5:12).

      [[[They were followed by James (James - in Jerusalem - largely
      used 1 Peter and no later than September 62 – he was killed by
      the end of that month). ]]]

      I suspect that copies of the three letters already mentioned were
      sent to Jerusalem with a copy of the Revelation. Given Peter's
      recognition as Apostle to the Jews it is not surprising to find that
      James borrowed heavily from his letter. The date of James'
      death is very significant.

      JAMES – Begins with the issue of suffering (1:2-4 and its value).
      He makes an interesting reference to the `crown of life' (1:12). It
      is mentioned elsewhere only in Rev 2:10. James understood
      that the coming of the Lord was at hand (5:7-8) and that the
      Judge was standing at the door (5:10; c.f. Rev 3:20 – `Behold I
      stand at the door and knock')

      [[[Accompanying Ephesians and dealing with similar issues was
      Colossians. ]]]

      COLOSSIANS – The content here is very similar to Ephesians, it
      almost certainly went out with the same courier (Tychicus – Eph
      6:21; Col 4:7) and was to be shared with Laodicea (4:16) just as
      they were to read the letter to Laodicea (probably the letter we
      know as Ephesians).

      The rest of my previous post follows, but I will not add comments
      to it unless you want them. What I have given above is only a
      brief account of the relationship between the letters themselves
      and the Revelation. I have addressed this more thoroughly in a
      lecture series which I hope, one day, to put together as a booklet.

      [[[In 63 1 Timothy and Titus were written as Paul prepared the
      churches around the Aegean Sea and, in 64, 2 Timothy, 2 Peter
      and the Gospel of Mark, the latter two accompanying one
      another. Jude was written as a local (probably Jerusalem)
      response to 2 Peter just as James had used 1 Peter.

      Nero's persecutions probably began at the end (November /
      December) of 64.]]]

      As you suggested, this is significant for the dating of the
      Revelation.

      Sincerely,

      Kym Smith
      Adelaide
      South Australia
      khs@...
    • Bob MacDonald
      This article Thomas B. SLATER Biblica 84 (2003) 252-258 may be of interest to the list http://www.bsw.org/?l=71841&a=Ani04.html Bob
      Message 2 of 5 , May 2, 2003
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        This article Thomas B. SLATER Biblica 84 (2003) 252-258 may be of interest
        to the list

        http://www.bsw.org/?l=71841&a=Ani04.html

        Bob

        mailto::BobMacDonald@...
        + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

        Catch the foxes for us,
        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
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