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Response to Rev. Paul

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  • Ed Garcia
    (I apologize if this response appears twice, I wasn t sure if my first posting worked. --Ed Garcia) ... Could you say a little more about this? Gladly! One of
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 28 10:13 AM
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      (I apologize if this response appears twice, I wasn't sure if my first
      posting worked. --Ed Garcia)


      >Point (3) No, I do not see Nero in either 666 or 616.

      Could you say a little more about this?

      Gladly!

      One of the problems with using isopsephia or gematria to solve the riddle is
      that you can get just about any name out of any string of numbers. This
      accounts for the wide variety of oftentimes fantastic solutions, everything
      from Computer to Kissinger, to Martin Luther to the Pope. So the fact that
      one can also construe Nero from the number of the beast comes as no
      surprise.

      As for the solution 'Nero' itself, one nagging problem for me is that (and
      my complaint does not originate with me) is that to arrive at the solution
      you must take a Latin name, transliterate it into Hebrew, add an extra
      letter (a nun if I remember correctly), calculate the numerical value and
      then translate the result into Greek. This to me sounds highly contrived.
      Apologies if I have
      mis-presented the solution. Some may argue that this is what John means
      when he calls for one with wisdom. But I don't think so. As I stated earlier
      it just proves to me that with enough tinkering you can get just about any
      name out of any string of numbers.

      Then there's the variant 616. That one can get Nero out of a variant number
      again does not surprise me...again just about any name out of any string of
      numbers.

      Rev. 13:18a reads 'Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate
      the number of the beast,'. The prophecy tells us to 'calculate the number
      of the beast'. Isopsephia and gematria calculate a name. We are told to
      calculate a number not a name and we are given the number to calculate. With
      the Gematria/Isophesia approach it is as though John were saying 'here is a
      number, now come up with the name I have in mind.' It would be similar to a
      math teacher giving a number to his students and then saying, 'now come up
      with the problem I have in mind.'

      I do not believe that isopsephia or gematria provide the answer we need.
      However they should be kept in mind as examples of how many of the ancients
      were fond of ciphers involving words, letters and their corresponding
      numbers. For we know that the Greeks, the Hebrews and the Romans were much
      practiced in this area. We should keep such History in the back of our mind
      as we ponder the number of the beast.

      And since I was asked to further comment, one thing still bugs me. I do not
      feel that I received a response to what I believe is a very legitimate
      question. Namely, why do many expositors understand the Gk. 'oros' in 11:9
      as hill and understand it as mountain everywhere else? In this case I do not
      believe I am over-stressing a point. The only answer I can see is that it
      suits a pre-conceived notion. I consider this to be a very valid question
      because it involves a critical verse upon which much rides.

      Thanks again for you thoughts and comments.

      -Ed Garcia




      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ian Paul [mailto:ian.b.paul@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2001 8:49 AM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Response to Mr. Nordgreen



      Ed Garcia wrote:

      >Point (3) No, I do not see Nero in either 666 or 616.

      Could you say a little more about this? The solution of 'Nero[n] Caesar
      [Kaisar]' has powerful exegetical credentials, in that:

      1. It follows the widespread pattern in both isopsephia and gematria of
      equating two things with equal numerical value and so identifying them.
      Here, 'beast' (therion) has value 666 when translilterated from Greek to
      Hebrew, as does 'Neron Kaisar', and this is the basis of the identification.

      2. It makes sense of the variant reading. Taking the genetive theriou and
      losing the final 'n' from Nero both give the alternative enumeration of 616.
      (Note also that the longer Neron does have the support of contemporary
      inscriptional evidence.)

      All this is set out very persuasively by Richard Bauckham in his 'The Climax
      of Prophecy' and his CUP 'Theology of the Book of Revelation.'

      I have always thought that an alternative understanding to this would need
      some very good support.

      regards

      Ian Paul
      .......................
      Revd Dr Ian Paul 32 Penn Hill Avenue, Poole, Dorset BH14 9LZ
      01202 745963 fax 01202 385539


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