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Aparent contradiction

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  • Ariel Alvarez Valdes
    In D. E. Aune´s book of Revelation (Revelation 1-5), in section 3, chapter IV, when he speaks on “Manner of Revelation” (I´m sorry I can’t quote the
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 17, 2003
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      In D. E. Aune´s book of Revelation (Revelation 1-5),
      in section 3, chapter IV, when he speaks on “Manner of
      Revelation” (I´m sorry I can’t quote the page, because
      I have the digital version of book), he says that “the
      location or vantage point of the seer oscillates
      (often abruptly) between earth and heaven”. And he
      adds (in 1.1.1 Visions) that Rev 21:1-8 is a vision
      contemplated from the earth. But just few lines after
      (in 1.3 Otherworldly journey), when he distinguishes
      between heavenly visions and earthly visions, he says
      that “A heavenly perspective is found in...
      21:9–22:9”.
      Why is this apparent contradiction in Aune?
      Where can we locate the vantage point of the seer in
      Rev 21:1-22:5, on earth or in heaven?

      Thank you.
      Ariel Alvarez Valdes



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    • Bob MacDonald
      Ariel asks ... Page numbers: section 3 Genre lxx “Manner of Revelation” lxxviii, 1.1.1 Visions lxxxii I find there the quote “the location or vantage
      Message 2 of 4 , Mar 17, 2003
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        Ariel asks
        >>Why is this apparent contradiction in Aune?

        Page numbers:
        section 3 Genre lxx
        “Manner of Revelation” lxxviii,
        1.1.1 Visions lxxxii

        I find there the quote “the location or vantage point of the seer oscillates
        (often abruptly) between earth and heaven”

        you mention
        "Rev 21:1-8 is a vision contemplated from the earth."

        I can't find this quote; in the printed version I have in front of me, Rev
        21:1-8 is just listed as one of the 12 shorter vision reports - it is a
        short paragraph - but maybe it is like the grocery store where I can't see
        what is in front of me.

        He notes in Otherworldly journey that "the perspective changes
        unpredictably"

        On p 277 of vol 1 he quotes Oswalt: "attempts to prove that the vision of
        Isa 6 took place in either the earthly or heavenly temple are overly literal
        ways of interpreting a text with theological concerns."

        As 21:5-8 (1.2.1 Discourse) shows the contemporaneous nature of the whole
        book - so perhaps the 'location' is equally heaven on earth, earth in
        heaven.

        Reminds me of Milton -
        The mind is its own place, and in itself
        Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
        (paradise lost)

        I do not see why he has characterised 21:1-8 as a heavenly perspective; I
        have always understood this to be a vision from the earth (whatever the
        difference is)

        Hope this helps a bit

        Bob

        mailto::BobMacDonald@...
        + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

        Catch the foxes for us,
        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca


        in section 3, chapter IV, when he speaks on (I´m sorry I can’t quote the
        page, because
        I have the digital version of book), he says that . And he
        adds (in 1.1.1 Visions) that But just few lines after
        (in 1.3 Otherworldly journey), when he distinguishes
        between heavenly visions and earthly visions, he says
        that “A heavenly perspective is found in...
        21:9–22:9”.

        Where can we locate the vantage point of the seer in
        Rev 21:1-22:5, on earth or in heaven?

        Thank you.
        Ariel Alvarez Valdes



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      • Ariel Alvarez Valdes
        Bob answers me (about my question on apparent contradiction in Aune) that he can t find the quote I sent. In fact, as Bobs says, in Introduction, section 3,
        Message 3 of 4 , Mar 18, 2003
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          Bob answers me (about my question on apparent
          contradiction in Aune) that he can't find the quote I
          sent.

          In fact, as Bobs says, in Introduction, section 3,
          chapter IV, on “Manner of Revelation” (Form), 1.1.1.
          Visions, Aune lists Rev 21:1-8 as one of the 12
          shorter vision reports that the seer contemplates from
          earth. But five paragraphs later, in “1.3.
          Otherworldly journey”, Aune says textually: “A
          heavenly perspective is found in 14:14–16, 17–20;
          15:1–16:21; 19:1–8, 11–21; 20:1–15; 21:1–8;
          21:9–22:9).
          Is it not a contradiction with former words?

          Ariel Alvarez Valdes

          ------------
          ¡Internet GRATIS es Yahoo! Conexión!
          Usuario "yahoo", contraseña "yahoo".
          Desde Buenos Aires, 4004-1010.
          Otras ciudades: http://conexion.yahoo.com.ar/avanzados.html
        • Bob MacDonald
          ... Ariel, I think the phrase above is not in the copy of Aune that I have I do not read him as you are - he says that the location oscillates as you saw -
          Message 4 of 4 , Mar 18, 2003
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            >> that the seer contemplates from earth.

            Ariel, I think the phrase above is not in the copy of Aune that I have

            I do not read him as you are - he says that the location 'oscillates' as you
            saw - sorry I cannot see what you seem to be seeing.

            Respond off list on this if you wish

            Bob

            mailto::BobMacDonald@...
            + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

            Catch the foxes for us,
            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Ariel Alvarez Valdes [mailto:arialvavaldes@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:30 AM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [revelation-list] Apparent contradiction

            Bob answers me (about my question on apparent
            contradiction in Aune) that he can't find the quote I
            sent.

            In fact, as Bobs says, in Introduction, section 3,
            chapter IV, on “Manner of Revelation” (Form), 1.1.1.
            Visions, Aune lists Rev 21:1-8 as one of the 12
            shorter vision reports that the seer contemplates from
            earth. But five paragraphs later, in “1.3.
            Otherworldly journey”, Aune says textually: “A
            heavenly perspective is found in 14:14–16, 17–20;
            15:1–16:21; 19:1–8, 11–21; 20:1–15; 21:1–8;
            21:9–22:9).
            Is it not a contradiction with former words?

            Ariel Alvarez Valdes
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