Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Revelation Midrash

Expand Messages
  • Alan Fuller
    Thank you for your reply sir. Hopefully I didn t misrepresent Mr. ... the main book of the Bible. He totally rejected the Book of Revelation. Yet the Book of
    Message 1 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
    • 0 Attachment
      Thank you for your reply sir. Hopefully I didn't misrepresent Mr.
      Prasch. What he actually said was:

      >>Martin Luther considered Romans to be
      the main book of the Bible. He totally rejected
      the Book of Revelation. Yet the Book
      of Revelation is the book for the Last Days.
      Luther admitted that you cannot understand
      it with a Protestant mind.
      What is wrong? Is the Book of Revelation
      wrong? or is the Protestant mind
      wrong? The Protestant mind is wrong.<<

      Alan Fuller

      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "jonp" <jonp@a...> wrote:
      > Alan,
      >
      > Based on your description I think Prasch is probably correct. It
      > certainly helps to understand how NT authors used the OT, I have
      been
      > pursuing this goal for a long time myself. One danger in applying
      this
      > approach to current scholarship, however, is the tendency to read
      back
      > onto OT authors the concepts of the NT, which often leads to a
      > distortion of the OT meaning. I call the midrashic approach as you
      > described it "flatlining the Bible," treating all texts as if they
      were
      > written by a single author to a single context at a single time
      (usually
      > the time of the interpreter).
      >
      > I think midrash is one of many tools that NT scholars need to
      apply. I
      > prefer striving for a balanced use of exegetical, historical,
      literary,
      > and theological tools.
      >
      > Jon Paulien, Chair
      > New Testament Department
      > Andrews University
      > jonp@a...
    • Bob MacDonald
      And he has upon his robe, that is, upon his thigh, a name inscribed ... I have not found much written on the location of the name of the rider of the white
      Message 2 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        "And he has upon his robe, that is, upon his thigh, a name inscribed ..."

        I have not found much written on the location of the name of the rider of
        the white horse.

        Has anyone any insight on this?

        Thanks

        Bob

        mailto::BobMacDonald@...
        + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

        Catch the foxes for us,
        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
      • David Barr
        ... Perhaps we should try a midrash on Genesis 24? Or perhaps a literary approach would be better? David David L. Barr Wright State University Dayton OH
        Message 3 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          At 08:22 AM 3/12/03 -0800, you wrote:
          >"And he has upon his robe, that is, upon his thigh, a name inscribed ..."
          >
          >I have not found much written on the location of the name of the rider of
          >the white horse.
          >
          >Has anyone any insight on this?
          >
          >Thanks

          Perhaps we should try a midrash on Genesis 24? Or perhaps a literary
          approach would be better?

          David

          David L. Barr
          Wright State University
          Dayton OH
        • coates
          David Chilton in The Days of Vengeance (pp.483-488.)does a short but neat exposition on this. Jason Coates Johannesburg S. Africa ... From: David Barr
          Message 4 of 11 , Mar 12, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            David Chilton in "The Days of Vengeance" (pp.483-488.)does a short but neat
            exposition on this.

            Jason Coates
            Johannesburg
            S. Africa

            -----Original Message-----
            From: David Barr [mailto:david.barr@...]
            Sent: 12 March 2003 06:33
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thigh


            At 08:22 AM 3/12/03 -0800, you wrote:
            >"And he has upon his robe, that is, upon his thigh, a name inscribed ..."
            >
            >I have not found much written on the location of the name of the rider of
            >the white horse.
            >
            >Has anyone any insight on this?
            >
            >Thanks

            Perhaps we should try a midrash on Genesis 24? Or perhaps a literary
            approach would be better?

            David

            David L. Barr
            Wright State University
            Dayton OH


            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Bob MacDonald
            Jason wrote: David Chilton in The Days of Vengeance (pp.483-488.)does a short but neat exposition on this. Unfortunately - this is not available to me in
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 13, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              Jason wrote: >>David Chilton in "The Days of Vengeance" (pp.483-488.)does a
              short but neat exposition on this.

              Unfortunately - this is not available to me in my library. Can you précis
              the idea for us?

              What makes it neat? Is he referring to the potential for intimate promise in
              the selection of a bride? (Abraham's servant) Or is he alluding to that
              part of the thigh which the Israelites never eat because the Lord put
              Israel's thigh out of joint? Or is he drawing on the image of the palanquin
              of Solomon accompanied by soldiers (in the middle of a love song)? The sword
              is usually at the thigh - not the name; in Revelation 19, the sword is at
              the mouth and the name which ought to be spoken is written on the thigh.

              Any of these could point to death through adoration. Personally I am
              convinced of the focus of this book on worship - it is my antidote to the
              popular interpretations of the violence.

              If there is a scholar on the list who would like to tear apart an essay on
              this, see http://bmd.gx.ca/tribulation.htm, subtitled 'turning to come round
              right' in memory of the Appalachian song.

              Bob

              mailto::BobMacDonald@...
              + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

              Catch the foxes for us,
              the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
              for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
              http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca


              -----Original Message-----
              From: coates [mailto:jasonnola@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 11:37 PM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Thigh


              David Chilton in "The Days of Vengeance" (pp.483-488.)does a short but neat
              exposition on this.

              Jason Coates
              Johannesburg
              S. Africa

              -----Original Message-----
              From: David Barr [mailto:david.barr@...]
              Sent: 12 March 2003 06:33
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thigh


              At 08:22 AM 3/12/03 -0800, you wrote:
              >"And he has upon his robe, that is, upon his thigh, a name inscribed ..."
              >
              >I have not found much written on the location of the name of the rider of
              >the white horse.
              >
              >Has anyone any insight on this?
              >
              >Thanks

              Perhaps we should try a midrash on Genesis 24? Or perhaps a literary
              approach would be better?

              David

              David L. Barr
              Wright State University
              Dayton OH


              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • coates
              The thigh is the place where the sword is worn. (cf.Psalm 45:3) The sword is in the mouth as it is by the Gospel, the word of God, that the nations are
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 13, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                The thigh is the place where the sword is worn. (cf.Psalm 45:3)
                The sword is in the mouth as it is by the Gospel, the word of God, that the
                nations are conquered.

                Your point on adoration and worship is well taken as Chilton believes that
                the NT words for "know" (ginosko and oida)are influenced by a Hebrew idiom
                in which the verb form has related connotations such as the idea of close
                ownership, acknowledging and acknowledging one's own. )Here the idea of
                Christ's intimacy with His own purposes seems to come through. He is the one
                who has taken from His side and He is the one employing the sword.) Chilton
                asserts that we do know the name in a cognitive sense, but that Christ alone
                is intimate with ownership and enactment of His name or identity. The sword
                is almost part of Him?

                The chiastic structure of the passage then reinforces this whole idea:

                A. HE HAS A NAME WRITTEN WHICH NO ONE OWNS EXCEPT HIMSELF. (v.12b)
                B. He is clothed with a robe dipped in blood (v.13a)
                C. His name is called the Word of God (v. 13b)
                C. From His mouth comes a sharp two-edged sword (v.15a)
                B. He treads the winepress of the fierce wrath of God (v15b.)
                A. On His Robe and on His thigh He has a name written: KING OF KINGS AND
                LORD OF LORDS (V16)

                "The sharp two-edged sword of 15a answers to 13b's characterization of
                Christ as the Word of God; 15b's information that Christ treads the
                winepress of wrath explains how His robe becomes stained with blood in 13a;
                and 16 tells us the name that 12b says Christ uniquely owns." (Chilton: pp.
                483-484.

                Somehow the replacement of the sword with the written name speaks to me of
                some type of covenantal exchange. The is direct purpose or intent behind
                this. The written name is perhaps an indicator that the sword is now in use
                and the fact that it is no longer at the thigh is emphasised by the
                inscription.

                My next question would be centred on Him treading the winepress of His
                wrath. Surely the thighs or legs are the main instruments of such an action?

                Jason Coates
                Johannesburg
                S. Africa


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Bob MacDonald [mailto:bobmacdonald@...]
                Sent: 13 March 2003 10:12
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Thigh


                Jason wrote: >>David Chilton in "The Days of Vengeance" (pp.483-488.)does a
                short but neat exposition on this.

                Unfortunately - this is not available to me in my library. Can you précis
                the idea for us?

                What makes it neat? Is he referring to the potential for intimate promise in
                the selection of a bride? (Abraham's servant) Or is he alluding to that
                part of the thigh which the Israelites never eat because the Lord put
                Israel's thigh out of joint? Or is he drawing on the image of the palanquin
                of Solomon accompanied by soldiers (in the middle of a love song)? The sword
                is usually at the thigh - not the name; in Revelation 19, the sword is at
                the mouth and the name which ought to be spoken is written on the thigh.

                Any of these could point to death through adoration. Personally I am
                convinced of the focus of this book on worship - it is my antidote to the
                popular interpretations of the violence.

                If there is a scholar on the list who would like to tear apart an essay on
                this, see http://bmd.gx.ca/tribulation.htm, subtitled 'turning to come round
                right' in memory of the Appalachian song.

                Bob

                mailto::BobMacDonald@...
                + + + Victoria, B.C., Canada + + +

                Catch the foxes for us,
                the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca


                -----Original Message-----
                From: coates [mailto:jasonnola@...]
                Sent: Wednesday, March 12, 2003 11:37 PM
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Thigh


                David Chilton in "The Days of Vengeance" (pp.483-488.)does a short but neat
                exposition on this.

                Jason Coates
                Johannesburg
                S. Africa

                -----Original Message-----
                From: David Barr [mailto:david.barr@...]
                Sent: 12 March 2003 06:33
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Thigh


                At 08:22 AM 3/12/03 -0800, you wrote:
                >"And he has upon his robe, that is, upon his thigh, a name inscribed ..."
                >
                >I have not found much written on the location of the name of the rider of
                >the white horse.
                >
                >Has anyone any insight on this?
                >
                >Thanks

                Perhaps we should try a midrash on Genesis 24? Or perhaps a literary
                approach would be better?

                David

                David L. Barr
                Wright State University
                Dayton OH


                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



                To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • Alan Fuller
                Here s a midrash style alternative view. Often Scripture regards the thigh as the seat of vital functions, especially procreation. English translations often
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 13, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Here's a midrash style alternative view.

                  Often Scripture regards the thigh as the seat of vital functions,
                  especially procreation. English translations often obscure this
                  connection. The Hebrew text of Genesis 46:26; Exodus 1:5; and Judges
                  8:30 gives the thighs (KJV loins) as the source of offspring.

                  The name KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS, means to conquer and reign
                  justly (Rev 17:14 Ps 72:11 Pr 8:15,16 Da 2:47 Php 2:9-11 1Ti 6:15)
                  The name of the rider is The Word of God (19:13).

                  The Word of God (Gospel) produces spiritual offspring. They are
                  converts to christianity. The Gospel conquers in this manner. This
                  is the view of the Gospel of Jesus Christ conquering the earth and
                  can perhaps be compared to the great comission or the vision of the
                  stone filling the earth in Daniel 2.

                  Alan Fuller
                • Mike McLafferty
                  ... The connotations or evocations of thigh are tempting, but it s also possible there s no special significance. An old commentary by Isbon T. Beckwith,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Mar 13, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Bob MacDonald originally inquired (# 455):

                    > "And he has upon his robe, that is,
                    > upon his thigh, a name inscribed ..."
                    >
                    > I have not found much written on the
                    > location of the name of the rider of
                    > the white horse.

                    The connotations or evocations of 'thigh' are tempting, but it's also
                    possible there's no special significance. An old commentary by Isbon T.
                    Beckwith, Ph.D., D.D., "The Apocalypse of John," (NY: Macmillan, 1919) says
                    of Rev. 19:16:

                    "KAI EPI TON MHRON, *that is, upon his thigh*: KAI, epexegetical. The words
                    make more specific the preceding general term; the name is written upon that
                    part of his mantle that falls over the thigh, and in the case of a rider is
                    especially conspicuous."

                    Respectfully,
                    Michael McLafferty
                    Portland, Oregon, USA
                  • Alan Fuller
                    It may be true that there is no significance to the location of the title, but if John practiced midrash, which was supposed to be the method of interpretation
                    Message 9 of 11 , Mar 14, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      It may be true that there is no significance to the location of the
                      title, but if John practiced midrash, which was supposed to be the
                      method of interpretation during the first century, then he probably
                      believed everything had significance.

                      Alan

                      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, "Mike McLafferty"
                      <mikemclafferty@a...> wrote:
                      > Bob MacDonald originally inquired (# 455):
                      >
                      > > "And he has upon his robe, that is,
                      > > upon his thigh, a name inscribed ..."
                      > >
                      > > I have not found much written on the
                      > > location of the name of the rider of
                      > > the white horse.
                      >
                      > The connotations or evocations of 'thigh' are tempting, but it's
                      also
                      > possible there's no special significance. An old commentary by
                      Isbon T.
                      > Beckwith, Ph.D., D.D., "The Apocalypse of John," (NY: Macmillan,
                      1919) says
                      > of Rev. 19:16:
                      >
                      > "KAI EPI TON MHRON, *that is, upon his thigh*: KAI, epexegetical.
                      The words
                      > make more specific the preceding general term; the name is written
                      upon that
                      > part of his mantle that falls over the thigh, and in the case of a
                      rider is
                      > especially conspicuous."
                      >
                      > Respectfully,
                      > Michael McLafferty
                      > Portland, Oregon, USA
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.