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Re: [revelation-list] Victorinus of Pettau and Rapture

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  • Juan Stam
    My deep gratitude to Alain-Marie de Lassus, Ramsey Michaels and Clay Bartholomew for their valuable help on Victorinus. Looking at other passages in
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 11, 2003
      My deep gratitude to Alain-Marie de Lassus, Ramsey Michaels and Clay
      Bartholomew for their valuable help on Victorinus. Looking at other
      passages in Victorinus (thanks to Clay), I find no evidence that he could
      have been thinking of a pre-tribulation rapture to rescue the saints prior
      to the Antichrist. Rather, I suspect Victorinus refers back to the flight of
      the woman (persecuted Church) in 12.6,14. His comment on 12.6 emphasizes
      withdrawal or removal: "I saw that all men withdrew from his abodes] That
      is, the good will be removed, flying from persecution. But the woman fled
      into the wilderness" (he then cites Lc 21.21, flee to mountains). This
      hardly fits the rapture. It would be interesting to see what latin verbs
      Victorinus uses for "withdraw" and "be removed" (similar to " exierit" in
      comment on 15.1?)



      He continues to explain 12:6,14 as being gathered together in Judea and
      then "go to that place which they have ready" to be nourished three years
      and six months from the presence of the devil. On 12.16 he again says she
      "flees from the face of the serpent". All this seems to explain the original
      quote better than any supposed reference to a pre-trib rapture.



      Dispensationalist TV-evangelist Jack van Impe (from whom I got the
      Victorinus quote) also appeals to Ephraem the Syrian for support, but fails
      to mention that the famous quote is not from Ephraem at all but from
      pseudo-Ephraem.



      Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer and Joseph Mede,
      which don't come close to being any clear statement of a
      dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can anyone comment on the
      eschatology of these two authors?



      Also, can anyone tell me how to access the commentary on Rev by Andrew
      (Andreas) of Cesarea?



      Many thanks!!



      Juan Stam (Costa Rica)
    • Phillip J. Long
      ... I can comment on Mede. He is a proto- premillenialist, in that Christ returns at the end of the conflgation at the end the AC s rule, establishes the
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 16, 2003
        > Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer and
        > Joseph Mede, which don't come close to being any clear
        > statement of a dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can
        > anyone comment on the eschatology of these two authors?

        I can comment on Mede. He is a proto- premillenialist, in that Christ
        returns at the end of the conflgation at the end the AC's rule,
        establishes the kingdom, then ruls that kingdom from heaven. The obvious
        difference from the modern form of pre-mil that Dispensationalism
        represents is that Christ is not present on earth during the kingdom.

        What Mede teaches concerning the rapture is that there will be a
        "pre-conflagration" catching away of the church prior to the second
        coming, but he does not flesh this out in any way, and is really not a
        pre-trib rapture as VanImpe would teach. Again, I'd call it
        "proto-pre-trib" if I had to. Mede discusses this pre-conflgration
        rapture in his commentary on 2 Peter, using the story of Noah as a text.
        Really it is a mention of a pre-conflagration rapture, and far from a
        discussion.


        Phillip J. Long
        Associate Professor of Bible
        Grace Bible College
        Grand Rapids, MI
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