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Re: [revelation-list] Victorinus of Pettau and Rapture

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  • c.s.bartholomew@worldnet.att.net
    ... Professor Michaels and Juan, Take a look at how de medio is used here. Matt. 13:49 sic erit in consummatione saeculi exibunt angeli et separabunt malos de
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 10, 2003
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      on 1/10/03 7:41 AM Ramsey Michaels wrote:

      > Having said that, I have to admit that the phrase "de medio" (presumably
      > from the Greek ek mesou) is interesting . . .

      Professor Michaels and Juan,

      Take a look at how de medio is used here.

      Matt. 13:49 sic erit in consummatione saeculi exibunt angeli et separabunt
      malos de medio iustorum

      MATT. 13:49 hOUTWS ESTAI EN THi SUNTELEIAi TOU AIWNOS: EXELEUSONTAI hOI
      AGGELOI KAI AFORIOUSIN TOUS PONHROUS EK MESOU TWN DIKAIWN

      greetings, Clay


      --
      Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
      Three Tree Point
      P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
    • Juan Stam
      My deep gratitude to Alain-Marie de Lassus, Ramsey Michaels and Clay Bartholomew for their valuable help on Victorinus. Looking at other passages in
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 11, 2003
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        My deep gratitude to Alain-Marie de Lassus, Ramsey Michaels and Clay
        Bartholomew for their valuable help on Victorinus. Looking at other
        passages in Victorinus (thanks to Clay), I find no evidence that he could
        have been thinking of a pre-tribulation rapture to rescue the saints prior
        to the Antichrist. Rather, I suspect Victorinus refers back to the flight of
        the woman (persecuted Church) in 12.6,14. His comment on 12.6 emphasizes
        withdrawal or removal: "I saw that all men withdrew from his abodes] That
        is, the good will be removed, flying from persecution. But the woman fled
        into the wilderness" (he then cites Lc 21.21, flee to mountains). This
        hardly fits the rapture. It would be interesting to see what latin verbs
        Victorinus uses for "withdraw" and "be removed" (similar to " exierit" in
        comment on 15.1?)



        He continues to explain 12:6,14 as being gathered together in Judea and
        then "go to that place which they have ready" to be nourished three years
        and six months from the presence of the devil. On 12.16 he again says she
        "flees from the face of the serpent". All this seems to explain the original
        quote better than any supposed reference to a pre-trib rapture.



        Dispensationalist TV-evangelist Jack van Impe (from whom I got the
        Victorinus quote) also appeals to Ephraem the Syrian for support, but fails
        to mention that the famous quote is not from Ephraem at all but from
        pseudo-Ephraem.



        Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer and Joseph Mede,
        which don't come close to being any clear statement of a
        dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can anyone comment on the
        eschatology of these two authors?



        Also, can anyone tell me how to access the commentary on Rev by Andrew
        (Andreas) of Cesarea?



        Many thanks!!



        Juan Stam (Costa Rica)
      • Phillip J. Long
        ... I can comment on Mede. He is a proto- premillenialist, in that Christ returns at the end of the conflgation at the end the AC s rule, establishes the
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 16, 2003
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          > Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer and
          > Joseph Mede, which don't come close to being any clear
          > statement of a dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can
          > anyone comment on the eschatology of these two authors?

          I can comment on Mede. He is a proto- premillenialist, in that Christ
          returns at the end of the conflgation at the end the AC's rule,
          establishes the kingdom, then ruls that kingdom from heaven. The obvious
          difference from the modern form of pre-mil that Dispensationalism
          represents is that Christ is not present on earth during the kingdom.

          What Mede teaches concerning the rapture is that there will be a
          "pre-conflagration" catching away of the church prior to the second
          coming, but he does not flesh this out in any way, and is really not a
          pre-trib rapture as VanImpe would teach. Again, I'd call it
          "proto-pre-trib" if I had to. Mede discusses this pre-conflgration
          rapture in his commentary on 2 Peter, using the story of Noah as a text.
          Really it is a mention of a pre-conflagration rapture, and far from a
          discussion.


          Phillip J. Long
          Associate Professor of Bible
          Grace Bible College
          Grand Rapids, MI
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