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Re: [revelation-list] Victorinus of Pettau and Rapture

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  • Ramsey Michaels
    Hi Juan, The notice that the church has gone out of the midst (de medio) would not have to imply a pre-tribulation rapture as modern dispensationalists
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 10, 2003
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      Hi Juan,

      The notice that the church has "gone out of the midst" (de medio) would not
      have to imply a pre-tribulation rapture as modern dispensationalists
      understand it. It could arise simply out of Victorinus' "reader response" to
      the immediately-preceding 15:1-4, in which "those who were victorious over
      the beast" are seen with harps beside the "sea of glass." Who else but the
      church? And where else but in heaven? Also, this is "in ultimo futura" and
      the plagues are "last" even in relation to previous plagues. This is not the
      beginning of "the tribulation" but well into it, maybe even the end of it.

      Having said that, I have to admit that the phrase "de medio" (presumably
      from the Greek ek mesou) is interesting, matching exactly the Vulgate of 2
      Thess 2:7, which as you may know, is interpreted in some esoteric versions
      of dispensationalism as referring to the pretribulation rapture.

      I'll be interested to hear what you come up with.

      All the best,

      Ramsey Michaels

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "P. Alain-Marie de Lassus" <alain.m.delassus@...>
      To: "Revelation List" <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 2:13 AM
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Victorinus of Pettau and Rapture


      le 10/01/03 5:01, Juan Stam à jstam@... a écrit :

      >
      > Greetings from Costa Rica!
      >
      > I have several questions about Victorinus' commentary on Revelation.
      Since
      > my resources here in Central America are limited, I will appreciate
      > immensely any help anyone can send on to me!
      >
      > 1) Is Victorinus' commentary available on-line in English, Spanish, German
      > or Latin (Migne?)"? A good translation would be the most helpful.
      >
      > 2) My immediate interest is the following quotation attributed to
      > Victorinus:
      >
      > "Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the
      > indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church
      > shall have gone out of the midst."
      >
      > 2a) can anyone tell me chapter and verse for the quote (I assume it is
      from
      > the commentary)?
      >
      > 2b) What is the context of the statement? Does the context indicate that
      > Victorinus is teaching a pre-tribulation rapture?
      >
      > Anyone who can help me will have earned at least one extra star in his/her
      > crown in heaven!
      >
      > thanks and best wishes
      >
      > Juan
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
      Hi Juan,

      I easily found the passage of Victorinus you are looking for in the edition
      of Victorinus commentary published in the "Sources chrétiennes" collection.
      Here is the Latin text:

      "Eamdem repetens persecutionem dicit Apocalypsis: Angelos septem habentes
      plagas quoniam in his finita est ira Dei. Semper enim ira Dei percutit
      populum contumacem septem plagis, id est perfecte, ut in Leuitico dicit,
      quae in ultimo futura sunt, cum ecclesia de medio exierit."

      (See: Victorin de Poetevio, "Sur l'Apocalypse et autres écrits", Sources
      chrétiennes No. 423, Cerf, Paris, 1997, p. 112. This edition gives also a
      French translation of the Latin text).

      Now this is the only commentary Victorinus has about Revelation 15, which is
      quite short, obviously. The next paragraph goes directly to Revelation 19!

      Best wishes,

      Alain M. de Lassus


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    • c.s.bartholomew@worldnet.att.net
      ... Professor Michaels and Juan, Take a look at how de medio is used here. Matt. 13:49 sic erit in consummatione saeculi exibunt angeli et separabunt malos de
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 10, 2003
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        on 1/10/03 7:41 AM Ramsey Michaels wrote:

        > Having said that, I have to admit that the phrase "de medio" (presumably
        > from the Greek ek mesou) is interesting . . .

        Professor Michaels and Juan,

        Take a look at how de medio is used here.

        Matt. 13:49 sic erit in consummatione saeculi exibunt angeli et separabunt
        malos de medio iustorum

        MATT. 13:49 hOUTWS ESTAI EN THi SUNTELEIAi TOU AIWNOS: EXELEUSONTAI hOI
        AGGELOI KAI AFORIOUSIN TOUS PONHROUS EK MESOU TWN DIKAIWN

        greetings, Clay


        --
        Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
        Three Tree Point
        P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
      • Juan Stam
        My deep gratitude to Alain-Marie de Lassus, Ramsey Michaels and Clay Bartholomew for their valuable help on Victorinus. Looking at other passages in
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 11, 2003
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          My deep gratitude to Alain-Marie de Lassus, Ramsey Michaels and Clay
          Bartholomew for their valuable help on Victorinus. Looking at other
          passages in Victorinus (thanks to Clay), I find no evidence that he could
          have been thinking of a pre-tribulation rapture to rescue the saints prior
          to the Antichrist. Rather, I suspect Victorinus refers back to the flight of
          the woman (persecuted Church) in 12.6,14. His comment on 12.6 emphasizes
          withdrawal or removal: "I saw that all men withdrew from his abodes] That
          is, the good will be removed, flying from persecution. But the woman fled
          into the wilderness" (he then cites Lc 21.21, flee to mountains). This
          hardly fits the rapture. It would be interesting to see what latin verbs
          Victorinus uses for "withdraw" and "be removed" (similar to " exierit" in
          comment on 15.1?)



          He continues to explain 12:6,14 as being gathered together in Judea and
          then "go to that place which they have ready" to be nourished three years
          and six months from the presence of the devil. On 12.16 he again says she
          "flees from the face of the serpent". All this seems to explain the original
          quote better than any supposed reference to a pre-trib rapture.



          Dispensationalist TV-evangelist Jack van Impe (from whom I got the
          Victorinus quote) also appeals to Ephraem the Syrian for support, but fails
          to mention that the famous quote is not from Ephraem at all but from
          pseudo-Ephraem.



          Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer and Joseph Mede,
          which don't come close to being any clear statement of a
          dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can anyone comment on the
          eschatology of these two authors?



          Also, can anyone tell me how to access the commentary on Rev by Andrew
          (Andreas) of Cesarea?



          Many thanks!!



          Juan Stam (Costa Rica)
        • Phillip J. Long
          ... I can comment on Mede. He is a proto- premillenialist, in that Christ returns at the end of the conflgation at the end the AC s rule, establishes the
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 16, 2003
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            > Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer and
            > Joseph Mede, which don't come close to being any clear
            > statement of a dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can
            > anyone comment on the eschatology of these two authors?

            I can comment on Mede. He is a proto- premillenialist, in that Christ
            returns at the end of the conflgation at the end the AC's rule,
            establishes the kingdom, then ruls that kingdom from heaven. The obvious
            difference from the modern form of pre-mil that Dispensationalism
            represents is that Christ is not present on earth during the kingdom.

            What Mede teaches concerning the rapture is that there will be a
            "pre-conflagration" catching away of the church prior to the second
            coming, but he does not flesh this out in any way, and is really not a
            pre-trib rapture as VanImpe would teach. Again, I'd call it
            "proto-pre-trib" if I had to. Mede discusses this pre-conflgration
            rapture in his commentary on 2 Peter, using the story of Noah as a text.
            Really it is a mention of a pre-conflagration rapture, and far from a
            discussion.


            Phillip J. Long
            Associate Professor of Bible
            Grace Bible College
            Grand Rapids, MI
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