Re: [revelation-list] Victorinus of Pettau and Rapture
- Hi Juan,
The notice that the church has "gone out of the midst" (de medio) would not
have to imply a pre-tribulation rapture as modern dispensationalists
understand it. It could arise simply out of Victorinus' "reader response" to
the immediately-preceding 15:1-4, in which "those who were victorious over
the beast" are seen with harps beside the "sea of glass." Who else but the
church? And where else but in heaven? Also, this is "in ultimo futura" and
the plagues are "last" even in relation to previous plagues. This is not the
beginning of "the tribulation" but well into it, maybe even the end of it.
Having said that, I have to admit that the phrase "de medio" (presumably
from the Greek ek mesou) is interesting, matching exactly the Vulgate of 2
Thess 2:7, which as you may know, is interpreted in some esoteric versions
of dispensationalism as referring to the pretribulation rapture.
I'll be interested to hear what you come up with.
All the best,
----- Original Message -----
From: "P. Alain-Marie de Lassus" <alain.m.delassus@...>
To: "Revelation List" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Victorinus of Pettau and Rapture
le 10/01/03 5:01, Juan Stam à jstam@... a écrit :
> Greetings from Costa Rica!
> I have several questions about Victorinus' commentary on Revelation.
> my resources here in Central America are limited, I will appreciate
> immensely any help anyone can send on to me!
> 1) Is Victorinus' commentary available on-line in English, Spanish, German
> or Latin (Migne?)"? A good translation would be the most helpful.
> 2) My immediate interest is the following quotation attributed to
> "Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the
> indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church
> shall have gone out of the midst."
> 2a) can anyone tell me chapter and verse for the quote (I assume it is
> the commentary)?
> 2b) What is the context of the statement? Does the context indicate that
> Victorinus is teaching a pre-tribulation rapture?
> Anyone who can help me will have earned at least one extra star in his/her
> crown in heaven!
> thanks and best wishes
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I easily found the passage of Victorinus you are looking for in the edition
of Victorinus commentary published in the "Sources chrétiennes" collection.
Here is the Latin text:
"Eamdem repetens persecutionem dicit Apocalypsis: Angelos septem habentes
plagas quoniam in his finita est ira Dei. Semper enim ira Dei percutit
populum contumacem septem plagis, id est perfecte, ut in Leuitico dicit,
quae in ultimo futura sunt, cum ecclesia de medio exierit."
(See: Victorin de Poetevio, "Sur l'Apocalypse et autres écrits", Sources
chrétiennes No. 423, Cerf, Paris, 1997, p. 112. This edition gives also a
French translation of the Latin text).
Now this is the only commentary Victorinus has about Revelation 15, which is
quite short, obviously. The next paragraph goes directly to Revelation 19!
Alain M. de Lassus
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- on 1/10/03 7:41 AM Ramsey Michaels wrote:
> Having said that, I have to admit that the phrase "de medio" (presumablyProfessor Michaels and Juan,
> from the Greek ek mesou) is interesting . . .
Take a look at how de medio is used here.
Matt. 13:49 sic erit in consummatione saeculi exibunt angeli et separabunt
malos de medio iustorum
MATT. 13:49 hOUTWS ESTAI EN THi SUNTELEIAi TOU AIWNOS: EXELEUSONTAI hOI
AGGELOI KAI AFORIOUSIN TOUS PONHROUS EK MESOU TWN DIKAIWN
Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
Three Tree Point
P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
- My deep gratitude to Alain-Marie de Lassus, Ramsey Michaels and Clay
Bartholomew for their valuable help on Victorinus. Looking at other
passages in Victorinus (thanks to Clay), I find no evidence that he could
have been thinking of a pre-tribulation rapture to rescue the saints prior
to the Antichrist. Rather, I suspect Victorinus refers back to the flight of
the woman (persecuted Church) in 12.6,14. His comment on 12.6 emphasizes
withdrawal or removal: "I saw that all men withdrew from his abodes] That
is, the good will be removed, flying from persecution. But the woman fled
into the wilderness" (he then cites Lc 21.21, flee to mountains). This
hardly fits the rapture. It would be interesting to see what latin verbs
Victorinus uses for "withdraw" and "be removed" (similar to " exierit" in
comment on 15.1?)
He continues to explain 12:6,14 as being gathered together in Judea and
then "go to that place which they have ready" to be nourished three years
and six months from the presence of the devil. On 12.16 he again says she
"flees from the face of the serpent". All this seems to explain the original
quote better than any supposed reference to a pre-trib rapture.
Dispensationalist TV-evangelist Jack van Impe (from whom I got the
Victorinus quote) also appeals to Ephraem the Syrian for support, but fails
to mention that the famous quote is not from Ephraem at all but from
Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer and Joseph Mede,
which don't come close to being any clear statement of a
dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can anyone comment on the
eschatology of these two authors?
Also, can anyone tell me how to access the commentary on Rev by Andrew
(Andreas) of Cesarea?
Juan Stam (Costa Rica)
> Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer andI can comment on Mede. He is a proto- premillenialist, in that Christ
> Joseph Mede, which don't come close to being any clear
> statement of a dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can
> anyone comment on the eschatology of these two authors?
returns at the end of the conflgation at the end the AC's rule,
establishes the kingdom, then ruls that kingdom from heaven. The obvious
difference from the modern form of pre-mil that Dispensationalism
represents is that Christ is not present on earth during the kingdom.
What Mede teaches concerning the rapture is that there will be a
"pre-conflagration" catching away of the church prior to the second
coming, but he does not flesh this out in any way, and is really not a
pre-trib rapture as VanImpe would teach. Again, I'd call it
"proto-pre-trib" if I had to. Mede discusses this pre-conflgration
rapture in his commentary on 2 Peter, using the story of Noah as a text.
Really it is a mention of a pre-conflagration rapture, and far from a
Phillip J. Long
Associate Professor of Bible
Grace Bible College
Grand Rapids, MI