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Victorinus of Pettau and Rapture

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  • Juan Stam
    Greetings from Costa Rica! I have several questions about Victorinus commentary on Revelation. Since my resources here in Central America are limited, I will
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 9, 2003
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      Greetings from Costa Rica!

      I have several questions about Victorinus' commentary on Revelation. Since
      my resources here in Central America are limited, I will appreciate
      immensely any help anyone can send on to me!

      1) Is Victorinus' commentary available on-line in English, Spanish, German
      or Latin (Migne?)"? A good translation would be the most helpful.

      2) My immediate interest is the following quotation attributed to
      Victorinus:

      "Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the
      indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church
      shall have gone out of the midst."

      2a) can anyone tell me chapter and verse for the quote (I assume it is from
      the commentary)?

      2b) What is the context of the statement? Does the context indicate that
      Victorinus is teaching a pre-tribulation rapture?

      Anyone who can help me will have earned at least one extra star in his/her
      crown in heaven!

      thanks and best wishes

      Juan
    • P. Alain-Marie de Lassus
      ... Hi Juan, I easily found the passage of Victorinus you are looking for in the edition of Victorinus commentary published in the Sources chrétiennes
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 9, 2003
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        le 10/01/03 5:01, Juan Stam à jstam@... a écrit :

        >
        > Greetings from Costa Rica!
        >
        > I have several questions about Victorinus' commentary on Revelation. Since
        > my resources here in Central America are limited, I will appreciate
        > immensely any help anyone can send on to me!
        >
        > 1) Is Victorinus' commentary available on-line in English, Spanish, German
        > or Latin (Migne?)"? A good translation would be the most helpful.
        >
        > 2) My immediate interest is the following quotation attributed to
        > Victorinus:
        >
        > "Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the
        > indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church
        > shall have gone out of the midst."
        >
        > 2a) can anyone tell me chapter and verse for the quote (I assume it is from
        > the commentary)?
        >
        > 2b) What is the context of the statement? Does the context indicate that
        > Victorinus is teaching a pre-tribulation rapture?
        >
        > Anyone who can help me will have earned at least one extra star in his/her
        > crown in heaven!
        >
        > thanks and best wishes
        >
        > Juan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        Hi Juan,

        I easily found the passage of Victorinus you are looking for in the edition
        of Victorinus commentary published in the "Sources chrétiennes" collection.
        Here is the Latin text:

        "Eamdem repetens persecutionem dicit Apocalypsis: Angelos septem habentes
        plagas quoniam in his finita est ira Dei. Semper enim ira Dei percutit
        populum contumacem septem plagis, id est perfecte, ut in Leuitico dicit,
        quae in ultimo futura sunt, cum ecclesia de medio exierit."

        (See: Victorin de Poetevio, "Sur l'Apocalypse et autres écrits", Sources
        chrétiennes No. 423, Cerf, Paris, 1997, p. 112. This edition gives also a
        French translation of the Latin text).

        Now this is the only commentary Victorinus has about Revelation 15, which is
        quite short, obviously. The next paragraph goes directly to Revelation 19!

        Best wishes,

        Alain M. de Lassus
      • Ramsey Michaels
        Hi Juan, The notice that the church has gone out of the midst (de medio) would not have to imply a pre-tribulation rapture as modern dispensationalists
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 10, 2003
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          Hi Juan,

          The notice that the church has "gone out of the midst" (de medio) would not
          have to imply a pre-tribulation rapture as modern dispensationalists
          understand it. It could arise simply out of Victorinus' "reader response" to
          the immediately-preceding 15:1-4, in which "those who were victorious over
          the beast" are seen with harps beside the "sea of glass." Who else but the
          church? And where else but in heaven? Also, this is "in ultimo futura" and
          the plagues are "last" even in relation to previous plagues. This is not the
          beginning of "the tribulation" but well into it, maybe even the end of it.

          Having said that, I have to admit that the phrase "de medio" (presumably
          from the Greek ek mesou) is interesting, matching exactly the Vulgate of 2
          Thess 2:7, which as you may know, is interpreted in some esoteric versions
          of dispensationalism as referring to the pretribulation rapture.

          I'll be interested to hear what you come up with.

          All the best,

          Ramsey Michaels

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "P. Alain-Marie de Lassus" <alain.m.delassus@...>
          To: "Revelation List" <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, January 10, 2003 2:13 AM
          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Victorinus of Pettau and Rapture


          le 10/01/03 5:01, Juan Stam à jstam@... a écrit :

          >
          > Greetings from Costa Rica!
          >
          > I have several questions about Victorinus' commentary on Revelation.
          Since
          > my resources here in Central America are limited, I will appreciate
          > immensely any help anyone can send on to me!
          >
          > 1) Is Victorinus' commentary available on-line in English, Spanish, German
          > or Latin (Migne?)"? A good translation would be the most helpful.
          >
          > 2) My immediate interest is the following quotation attributed to
          > Victorinus:
          >
          > "Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the
          > indignation of God. And these shall be in the last time when the church
          > shall have gone out of the midst."
          >
          > 2a) can anyone tell me chapter and verse for the quote (I assume it is
          from
          > the commentary)?
          >
          > 2b) What is the context of the statement? Does the context indicate that
          > Victorinus is teaching a pre-tribulation rapture?
          >
          > Anyone who can help me will have earned at least one extra star in his/her
          > crown in heaven!
          >
          > thanks and best wishes
          >
          > Juan
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
          Hi Juan,

          I easily found the passage of Victorinus you are looking for in the edition
          of Victorinus commentary published in the "Sources chrétiennes" collection.
          Here is the Latin text:

          "Eamdem repetens persecutionem dicit Apocalypsis: Angelos septem habentes
          plagas quoniam in his finita est ira Dei. Semper enim ira Dei percutit
          populum contumacem septem plagis, id est perfecte, ut in Leuitico dicit,
          quae in ultimo futura sunt, cum ecclesia de medio exierit."

          (See: Victorin de Poetevio, "Sur l'Apocalypse et autres écrits", Sources
          chrétiennes No. 423, Cerf, Paris, 1997, p. 112. This edition gives also a
          French translation of the Latin text).

          Now this is the only commentary Victorinus has about Revelation 15, which is
          quite short, obviously. The next paragraph goes directly to Revelation 19!

          Best wishes,

          Alain M. de Lassus


          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • c.s.bartholomew@worldnet.att.net
          ... Professor Michaels and Juan, Take a look at how de medio is used here. Matt. 13:49 sic erit in consummatione saeculi exibunt angeli et separabunt malos de
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 10, 2003
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            on 1/10/03 7:41 AM Ramsey Michaels wrote:

            > Having said that, I have to admit that the phrase "de medio" (presumably
            > from the Greek ek mesou) is interesting . . .

            Professor Michaels and Juan,

            Take a look at how de medio is used here.

            Matt. 13:49 sic erit in consummatione saeculi exibunt angeli et separabunt
            malos de medio iustorum

            MATT. 13:49 hOUTWS ESTAI EN THi SUNTELEIAi TOU AIWNOS: EXELEUSONTAI hOI
            AGGELOI KAI AFORIOUSIN TOUS PONHROUS EK MESOU TWN DIKAIWN

            greetings, Clay


            --
            Clayton Stirling Bartholomew
            Three Tree Point
            P.O. Box 255 Seahurst WA 98062
          • Juan Stam
            My deep gratitude to Alain-Marie de Lassus, Ramsey Michaels and Clay Bartholomew for their valuable help on Victorinus. Looking at other passages in
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 11, 2003
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              My deep gratitude to Alain-Marie de Lassus, Ramsey Michaels and Clay
              Bartholomew for their valuable help on Victorinus. Looking at other
              passages in Victorinus (thanks to Clay), I find no evidence that he could
              have been thinking of a pre-tribulation rapture to rescue the saints prior
              to the Antichrist. Rather, I suspect Victorinus refers back to the flight of
              the woman (persecuted Church) in 12.6,14. His comment on 12.6 emphasizes
              withdrawal or removal: "I saw that all men withdrew from his abodes] That
              is, the good will be removed, flying from persecution. But the woman fled
              into the wilderness" (he then cites Lc 21.21, flee to mountains). This
              hardly fits the rapture. It would be interesting to see what latin verbs
              Victorinus uses for "withdraw" and "be removed" (similar to " exierit" in
              comment on 15.1?)



              He continues to explain 12:6,14 as being gathered together in Judea and
              then "go to that place which they have ready" to be nourished three years
              and six months from the presence of the devil. On 12.16 he again says she
              "flees from the face of the serpent". All this seems to explain the original
              quote better than any supposed reference to a pre-trib rapture.



              Dispensationalist TV-evangelist Jack van Impe (from whom I got the
              Victorinus quote) also appeals to Ephraem the Syrian for support, but fails
              to mention that the famous quote is not from Ephraem at all but from
              pseudo-Ephraem.



              Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer and Joseph Mede,
              which don't come close to being any clear statement of a
              dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can anyone comment on the
              eschatology of these two authors?



              Also, can anyone tell me how to access the commentary on Rev by Andrew
              (Andreas) of Cesarea?



              Many thanks!!



              Juan Stam (Costa Rica)
            • Phillip J. Long
              ... I can comment on Mede. He is a proto- premillenialist, in that Christ returns at the end of the conflgation at the end the AC s rule, establishes the
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 16, 2003
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                > Van Impe also cites ambiguous phrases from Hugo Latimer and
                > Joseph Mede, which don't come close to being any clear
                > statement of a dispensationalist-style pre-Trib rapture. Can
                > anyone comment on the eschatology of these two authors?

                I can comment on Mede. He is a proto- premillenialist, in that Christ
                returns at the end of the conflgation at the end the AC's rule,
                establishes the kingdom, then ruls that kingdom from heaven. The obvious
                difference from the modern form of pre-mil that Dispensationalism
                represents is that Christ is not present on earth during the kingdom.

                What Mede teaches concerning the rapture is that there will be a
                "pre-conflagration" catching away of the church prior to the second
                coming, but he does not flesh this out in any way, and is really not a
                pre-trib rapture as VanImpe would teach. Again, I'd call it
                "proto-pre-trib" if I had to. Mede discusses this pre-conflgration
                rapture in his commentary on 2 Peter, using the story of Noah as a text.
                Really it is a mention of a pre-conflagration rapture, and far from a
                discussion.


                Phillip J. Long
                Associate Professor of Bible
                Grace Bible College
                Grand Rapids, MI
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