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Re: The trumpets??

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  • Alan Fuller
    Christian, i) I think that the scenario you suggest is quite possible. The trumpets might well be a judgment against non-christians. I understand that there
    Message 1 of 2 , Oct 29, 2002
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      Christian,

      i) I think that the scenario you suggest is quite possible. The
      trumpets might well be a judgment against non-christians. I
      understand that there are still christians on the earth at the time
      of the fifth seal since the christians are told to be patient for
      a "little season" until their brethern who were to be killed in the
      same manner as they were. A little season is also mentioned in
      20:3. But I would guess that the trumpets are actually judgments
      against the non-christians.

      ii) Are you saying that the two witnesses have some responsibility
      for the first six trumpets? Do you believe that the witnesses caused
      some of the previous judgments, but were not named until later in the
      sixth seal?

      As far as what they are prophesying, I would suppose they would be
      prophesying about the rest of the events in the sixth and seventh
      trumpets. Do you feel it would be something different?

      I think the relationship between the two witnesses and the seven
      churches is intresting. They are identified as the "two olive trees
      and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth."
      This is nearly the same description of the olive trees by the
      candlestick in Zechariah 4:14. The seven churches are also
      identified as candlesticks in Rev 1:20.

      iii) First: I suppose the fact that they are called witnesses infers
      that they are calling for conversion. There are later calls
      for "conversion" found in Revelation (18:4), but not specifically in
      chapter 16.

      Second: The contrast between the "thirds" in the trumpets and
      the "wholes" in the bowls is often pointed out. If the book is to be
      read sequentially, then I wonder how these partial jugments are
      supposed to happen after "The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up,
      and every mountain and island was removed from its place. (6:14)" I
      think it makes a good case for an "overlapping" structure to the
      book, rather than one that is totally sequential.

      Third: Verses 11:15-19 seem to have a ring of finality to them.
      Reigning forever, time for judging the dead and rewarding the saints,
      and destroying those who destroy the earth seem like time ending
      events. What do you think?

      I think there are several endings in the book of Revelation.

      Alan Fuller,
      Texas, USA

      --- In revelation-list@y..., "Christian Maymann" <christian@m...>
      wrote:
      > Dear List-members
      >
      >
      >
      > I'm wondering how we are to understand 8:5-11:19 in the context of
      the book of Revelation. I hope that you have some good answers on the
      following questions:
      >
      >
      >
      > i) That is the relationship between the trumpets and the seal (6:1-
      8:1)?
      >
      > In my own understanding, I think, that the seal first of all
      concern the expiernces of the churches. May guess for this
      understanding is, that the fifth seal depicts the souls of the people
      been killed for the sake of the word of God, and their word of
      witness (concerning Christ I guess). I the fifth seal there are two
      groups: the people who have been slain, and the people who have slain
      them (called "them that dwell on the earth") The people who have been
      slain, cry for avenge on them that dwell on the earth.
      >
      > In 8:13 we hear the eagle say: "Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of
      the earth". So the trumpets, I guess, concern "them that dwell on the
      earth". In the book of Revelation this formulation is a standard
      referent to the non-Christian world.
      >
      > The conclusion to this that the trumpets depict the avenge called
      for in the fifth seal - Is this a possible understanding?
      >
      >
      >
      > ii) That is the relationship between the first six trumpets (8:5-
      9:21) and the two witnesses in 11:1-14?
      >
      > I think that this question point to at least two more questions:
      >
      >
      > First: How should we understand the chronology between the six
      trumpets and the two witnesses?
      >
      > Second: That is the function of the witnesses? 11:3 says "they
      shall prophesy", but what exactly is the content of their prophesy?
      And what is the relationship to the war described in the fifth and
      sixth trumpets?
      >
      >
      >
      > iii) What is the relationship between the trumpets and the bowls
      (15:1-16:21)?
      >
      > The trumpets and the bowls have the use of the motives of Exodus
      in common. But some aspects are different, and that point me to and
      understanding, that goes as follow:
      >
      >
      >
      > The trumpets depict a kind of not-totally-judgment-of-God, and the
      bowls depict the totally-judgment-of-God.
      >
      > I think that this understanding is required at least by the
      following observations:
      >
      > First: In the trumpets, we have we two witness proclaiming the
      judgment and calling for conversion. In the bowls we do not have any
      vision of that kind, but just the doom.
      >
      > Second: The trumpets concern the whole world (We do not have any
      one-third like 8:8 and so on), the trumpets concern only a part of
      the world.
      >
      > Third: After the third bowl we heard an angel proclaiming, that the
      lord have judge the people, who have been against the people of God -
      We do not have any of that kind in the trumpets.
      >
      >
      >
      > Do you have any comments?
      >
      >
      >
      > Christian Maymann
      >
      > M.Theol, Denmark.
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