Fw: [revelation-list] Rome v Jerusalem
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don K. Preston" <dkpret@...>
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 7:36 AM
Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Rome v Jerusalem
> Of course, I concur with Ed Garcia. One of the things that strikes me as
> with the Rome/Babylon posit is the fact that Babylon is depicted as having
> filled the measure of her sin by persecuting the prophets, killing the
> and killing the apostles. In my book Who Is This Babylon? I demonstrate
> in Matthew (23:29f), Jesus identified Jerusalem/Israel as guilty of the
> blood of the prophets, they would kill him (21:33f), and his apostles
> (23:33f). In Thessalonians (1:2:15f) Paul reiterates that pattern. Israel
> had killed the prophets, Jesus and were now killing the apostles. It seems
> somewhat incongruous to suggest that John diverts from this earlier
> for many reasons.
> One that comes to mind immediately is the duration of the persecution of
> Consider that it took Israel centuries to fill up the measure of her sin
> killing the prophets, Jesus, and his apostles. Her internicine history was
> long, God's patience, even with her bloodguilt was longsuffering. Yet, if
> Babylon was Rome, and if if was written under Domitian, then this means
> the somewhat brief Neronian persecution, however intense it admittedly
> served to bring Rome's bloodguilt to the point of being filled to the
> and that the (questionable) Domitianic persecution put it over the top.
> The timeline suggested by this seems improper. Did it take Israel 1500
> to ultimately fill her cup of sin by killing the prophets, but it took
> less than 20 (to just pull a figure out of the hat)?
> I rather suggest that the Old Testament prophecies dealing with the
> bloodguilt for killing the prophets, and the vindication of the martyrs
> behind the Apoc. This theme goes all the way back to Abel, to the Song of
> Moses, and throughout the prophetic corpus, to Jesus and finally to John.
> Clearly the vindication of the prophets/ martyrs is what the Apocalypse is
> foccused on. If this is the case, then Jesus' words in Luke 13:31f, "It is
> not possible for a prophet to perish outside of Jerusalem," would seem to
> provide an interpretative key to understanding the Apocalypse.
> Don K
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ed Garcia <Ed.Garcia@...>
> To: <email@example.com>
> Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:17 AM
> Subject: [revelation-list] Rome v Jerusalem
> > I have read the discussions concerning Rome as the great harlot of
> > Revelation with great interest, however I am still unconvinced. The
> > evidence, I believe, points overwhelmingly to Jerusalem as the harlot.
> > is an obvious solution but such a conclusion has always struck me as too
> > pat, too clean. I am suspicious. Rome as a solution is obvious but maybe
> > obvious.
> > Here are a few other points to consider. In Rev. 17:6 John is taken to
> > wilderness marvels to see a harlot drunk with the blood of the saints.
> > see pagan Rome depicted as a drunken, bloodied and blasphemous harlot
> > be nothing to marvel at, yet John marvels. However if we understand the
> > harlot as Jerusalem then truly we have something to marvel at. Who was
> > great persecutor of the early church? Starting with the persecution and
> > crucifixion of Jesus, to the apostles in hiding for fear of the Jews, to
> > stoning of Steven, to Saul breathing threats and murder against the
> > disciples of the Lord, to the struggles of the early church with
> > to the persecutions of the apostle Paul, to the troubles of the
> > Smyrna and Philadelphia in Revelation it is obvious that the greatest
> > and danger to the infant church was Judaism, symbolized by Jerusalem. To
> > quote St. Paul, "Now we, brethren like Isaac, are children of promise.
> > as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him
> > was born according to the Spirit, so it is now." In this very same
> > Paul tells us of two Jerusalems. Revelation also speaks of two
> > one the earthly Jerusalem a harlot the other new Jerusalem coming down
> > of heaven. These are but a few of my reasons for understanding the
> > Jerusalem.
> > Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ the author of our salvation
> > as such it speaks prophetically of the struggle between the old
> > and the new. As for Rome, I do not see that it plays a role of any
> > importance in the book of Revelation. Though I am always open to any
> > thoughts.
> > Ed Garcia
> > Kansas
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