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Fw: [revelation-list] Rome v Jerusalem

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  • Phil Mayo
    ... From: Don K. Preston To: Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 7:36 AM Subject: Re: [revelation-list]
    Message 1 of 1 , Aug 24, 2001
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Don K. Preston" <dkpret@...>
      To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 7:36 AM
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Rome v Jerusalem


      > Of course, I concur with Ed Garcia. One of the things that strikes me as
      odd
      > with the Rome/Babylon posit is the fact that Babylon is depicted as having
      > filled the measure of her sin by persecuting the prophets, killing the
      Lord,
      > and killing the apostles. In my book Who Is This Babylon? I demonstrate
      that
      > in Matthew (23:29f), Jesus identified Jerusalem/Israel as guilty of the
      > blood of the prophets, they would kill him (21:33f), and his apostles
      > (23:33f). In Thessalonians (1:2:15f) Paul reiterates that pattern. Israel
      > had killed the prophets, Jesus and were now killing the apostles. It seems
      > somewhat incongruous to suggest that John diverts from this earlier
      pattern,
      > for many reasons.
      > One that comes to mind immediately is the duration of the persecution of
      the
      > saints.
      > Consider that it took Israel centuries to fill up the measure of her sin
      by
      > killing the prophets, Jesus, and his apostles. Her internicine history was
      > long, God's patience, even with her bloodguilt was longsuffering. Yet, if
      > Babylon was Rome, and if if was written under Domitian, then this means
      that
      > the somewhat brief Neronian persecution, however intense it admittedly
      was,
      > served to bring Rome's bloodguilt to the point of being filled to the
      brim,
      > and that the (questionable) Domitianic persecution put it over the top.
      > The timeline suggested by this seems improper. Did it take Israel 1500
      years
      > to ultimately fill her cup of sin by killing the prophets, but it took
      Rome
      > less than 20 (to just pull a figure out of the hat)?
      > I rather suggest that the Old Testament prophecies dealing with the
      > bloodguilt for killing the prophets, and the vindication of the martyrs
      lies
      > behind the Apoc. This theme goes all the way back to Abel, to the Song of
      > Moses, and throughout the prophetic corpus, to Jesus and finally to John.
      > Clearly the vindication of the prophets/ martyrs is what the Apocalypse is
      > foccused on. If this is the case, then Jesus' words in Luke 13:31f, "It is
      > not possible for a prophet to perish outside of Jerusalem," would seem to
      > provide an interpretative key to understanding the Apocalypse.
      > Don K
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Ed Garcia <Ed.Garcia@...>
      > To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 9:17 AM
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Rome v Jerusalem
      >
      >
      > > I have read the discussions concerning Rome as the great harlot of
      > > Revelation with great interest, however I am still unconvinced. The
      > > evidence, I believe, points overwhelmingly to Jerusalem as the harlot.
      > Rome
      > > is an obvious solution but such a conclusion has always struck me as too
      > > pat, too clean. I am suspicious. Rome as a solution is obvious but maybe
      > too
      > > obvious.
      > >
      > > Here are a few other points to consider. In Rev. 17:6 John is taken to
      the
      > > wilderness marvels to see a harlot drunk with the blood of the saints.
      To
      > > see pagan Rome depicted as a drunken, bloodied and blasphemous harlot
      > would
      > > be nothing to marvel at, yet John marvels. However if we understand the
      > > harlot as Jerusalem then truly we have something to marvel at. Who was
      the
      > > great persecutor of the early church? Starting with the persecution and
      > > crucifixion of Jesus, to the apostles in hiding for fear of the Jews, to
      > the
      > > stoning of Steven, to Saul breathing threats and murder against the
      > > disciples of the Lord, to the struggles of the early church with
      > Judaizers,
      > > to the persecutions of the apostle Paul, to the troubles of the
      churches
      > of
      > > Smyrna and Philadelphia in Revelation it is obvious that the greatest
      > threat
      > > and danger to the infant church was Judaism, symbolized by Jerusalem. To
      > > quote St. Paul, "Now we, brethren like Isaac, are children of promise.
      But
      > > as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him
      who
      > > was born according to the Spirit, so it is now." In this very same
      epistle
      > > Paul tells us of two Jerusalems. Revelation also speaks of two
      Jerusalems,
      > > one the earthly Jerusalem a harlot the other new Jerusalem coming down
      out
      > > of heaven. These are but a few of my reasons for understanding the
      harlot
      > as
      > > Jerusalem.
      > >
      > > Revelation is the revelation of Jesus Christ the author of our salvation
      > and
      > > as such it speaks prophetically of the struggle between the old
      > dispensation
      > > and the new. As for Rome, I do not see that it plays a role of any
      > > importance in the book of Revelation. Though I am always open to any
      other
      > > thoughts.
      > >
      > > Ed Garcia
      > > Kansas
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > >
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