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Re: [revelation-list] wealth and the Apocalypse

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  • Phil Mayo
    I think that Robert Gundry has made a persuasive argument for the New Jerusalem as representative of the people of God. After all, the angel identifies the
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 14, 2002
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      I think that Robert Gundry has made a persuasive argument for the New Jerusalem as representative of the people of God.  After all, the angel identifies the city as "the bride, the wife of the Lamb" (21.9 NRSV).  If you consider the connection of the number symbolism with the 144,000 in chs. 7 and 14 as Gundry does, the image becomes clear.
      As for the jewels of the New Jerusalem, a quite common interpretation seems to be their connection to the 12 stones found in the breast piece of the High Priest.  See the commentaries by Beale, NIGTC, 411-12; 1080ff and F. J. Murphy, "Fallen is Babylon," 420-21 for some discussion here.  R. H. Charles notes that the twelve stones of Rev 21 are each associated with the signs of the Zodiac (Charles, 2:167-68), albeit in reverse order according to John's list.  Murphy argues that John sees wealth as negative because of Rome's exploitive use of it but does not see it as evil in itself.  As it relates to the people of God, it is "pure and proper" (421). 
       
      Hope this helps.
       
      Phil Mayo
      --------------------------------------------------------------------
      Philip L. Mayo
      Adjunct Faculty
      Fuller Theological Seminary
      Azusa Pacific University
      pjmayo@...
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:15 AM
      Subject: [revelation-list] wealth and the Apocalypse

      Robert Gundry has argued (convincingly?) that the new Jerusalem is a symbol for the saints.  However, he interprets the precious stones in the structure of the city as an indication that the saints will be compensated with material wealth for the persecution which they endured.

       

      Does this image of wealth as reward fit with how the Apocalypse portrays wealth elsewhere?  It seems to me that wealth has been viewed by the author as negative, exploitive, etc., thus, the image of Babylon and its destruction.

       

      Any comments would be appreciated and/or sources dealing with wealth in the Apocalypse.

       

      Thanks,

      Terry-Michael Newell

      Buies Creek, NC

      USA



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    • goranson@duke.edu
      Perhaps you would find interesting material for comparison in Wealth in the Dead Sea Scrolls and in the Qumran Community Catherine M. Murphy STDJ 40 Leiden:
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 14, 2002
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        Perhaps you would find interesting material for comparison in
        Wealth in the Dead Sea Scrolls and in the Qumran Community
        Catherine M. Murphy
        STDJ 40
        Leiden: Brill, 2002

        Stephen Goranson
        goranson@...
      • Gareth Powell
        ... Re: [revelation-list] wealth and the Apocalypse Phil, Whilst I agree that the NJ is representative of the people of God, I think that this limits the rich
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 14, 2002
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          Re: [revelation-list] wealth and the Apocalypse
          Phil,

          Whilst I agree that the NJ is representative of the people of God, I think that this limits the rich symbolism the NJ contains.  It misses altogether the redemptive power of the slain Lamb for the whole of creation, nor does it consider the symbolic reversal from Babylon to the NJ.

          Very few scholars seem to recognise the importance of the redemption of creation in Revelation, and miss the vital link between the judgements on Babylon in Ch. 16 which not only effect Babylon, but also severely damage the creation.  Whilst this interpretation does rely on more liberational approaches to the text, it does render the texts as pertinent for the ecological crisis we find ourselves in today.  More explicitly it allows us top see that creation and humanity are not separate, both are ‘fallen’, and both are in need of redemption, and humanity in its rebellion against God does cause only suffering to itself but also its habitation.

          Gareth Powell





          I think that Robert Gundry has made a persuasive argument for the New Jerusalem as representative of the people of God.  After all, the angel identifies the city as "the bride, the wife of the Lamb" (21.9 NRSV).  If you consider the connection of the number symbolism with the 144,000 in chs. 7 and 14 as Gundry does, the image becomes clear.
          As for the jewels of the New Jerusalem, a quite common interpretation seems to be their connection to the 12 stones found in the breast piece of the High Priest.  See the commentaries by Beale, NIGTC, 411-12; 1080ff and F. J. Murphy, "Fallen is Babylon," 420-21 for some discussion here.  R. H. Charles notes that the twelve stones of Rev 21 are each associated with the signs of the Zodiac (Charles, 2:167-68), albeit in reverse order according to John's list.  Murphy argues that John sees wealth as negative because of Rome's exploitive use of it but does not see it as evil in itself.  As it relates to the people of God, it is "pure and proper" (421).  

          Hope this helps.

          Phil Mayo
          --------------------------------------------------------------------
          Philip L. Mayo
          Adjunct Faculty
          Fuller Theological Seminary
          Azusa Pacific University
          pjmayo@...
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Newell, Terry-Michael <mailto:newell@...>  
          To: Revelation-List Group (revelation-list@yahoogroups.com) <mailto:revelation-list@yahoogroups.com)>  
          Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 7:15 AM
          Subject: [revelation-list] wealth and the Apocalypse

          Robert Gundry has argued (convincingly?) that the new Jerusalem is a symbol for the saints.  However, he interprets the precious stones in the structure of the city as an indication that the saints will be compensated with material wealth for the persecution which they endured.



          Does this image of wealth as reward fit with how the Apocalypse portrays wealth elsewhere?  It seems to me that wealth has been viewed by the author as negative, exploitive, etc., thus, the image of Babylon and its destruction.



          Any comments would be appreciated and/or sources dealing with wealth in the Apocalypse.



          Thanks,

          Terry-Michael Newell

          Buies Creek, NC

          USA


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