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  • Moriah Plastics
    Any thoughts out there on the bow held by the 1st horseman? Chilton has some interesting insights. ... From: Georg S. Adamsen To:
    Message 1 of 14 , May 28, 2002
      Any thoughts out there on the bow held by the 1st horseman? Chilton has some
      interesting insights.
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Georg S. Adamsen <georg.adamsen@...>
      To: Revelation-List@Yahoogroups. Com <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, May 26, 2002 8:48 PM
      Subject: [revelation-list] Web site has moved


      > Dear list members
      >
      > Revelation Resources has been moved to
      >
      > http://www.book-of-revelation.com
      >
      > Please, update your bookmarks, web references etc. However, SunSITE.dk
      > will redirect browsers to the new site (for some time, at least).
      >
      > My personal web pages have been moved to
      >
      > http://www.book-of-revelation.com/~gadamsen/
      >
      >
      > Georg S. Adamsen
      > LSTA
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      >
      >
    • Paul Anderson
      Dear colleagues, What are the latest specific theories rooted in historical or archaeological evidence about what the mark of the beast may have been within
      Message 2 of 14 , May 28, 2002
        Dear colleagues,

        What are the latest specific theories rooted in historical or
        archaeological evidence about what the "mark of the beast" may have been
        within the late first-century setting of the Roman Empire? And what is
        made of its being displayed on one's right hand or forehead (Rev.
        13:16-17)?

        Thanks! Inquiring minds want to know.

        Paul Anderson
      • kymhsm
        Dear Paul, I am not sure that my scribblings fit with , but I have included an excerpt from my book, `Redating the Revelation
        Message 3 of 14 , May 28, 2002
          Dear Paul,

          I am not sure that my scribblings fit with <<<latest specific
          theories>>>, but I have included an excerpt from my book,
          `Redating the Revelation and…', which is part of a response to
          the issue of emperor worship and arguing against recent
          scholars' acceptance of a Domitianic date.

          "Associated with the worship of the Beast was the `mark' given to
          his followers (Rev 13:16). In the first century a number of
          `markings' took place, some by force (e.g. of slaves) and others
          willingly, as signs of devotion (e.g. of soldiers to a general), but
          there is no record of the enforced imposition of a mark for all
          citizens of the empire, `both small and great, rich and poor, both
          free and slave'. If to identify the Beast we are to insist on
          emperor worship at the level it is demanded in the Revelation,
          then we should also insist that the `mark of the Beast' was a
          universal expectation. As this did not occur under Domitian, it is
          probable that, with the `mark', we can link the absolute demand
          for worship to the ultimate Beast. In that case the matter of
          emperor worship – or, at least, the degree of it – is no longer a
          bar to considering Nero as the emperor Beast of the
          Apocalypse." (p. 61)

          Part of my understanding is that the Revelation, while useful for
          all ages, was given specifically for two, the persecutions under
          Nero and the tribulation which will precede the end of this age
          and Christ's return. It seems to me that the conditions which
          preceded and included Nero's persecutions were used (by God)
          to give a double layered prophetic message which was fulfilled
          in part with Nero but which would be finally fulfilled when the
          ultimate Beast / Antichrist / man of lawlessness is revealed.

          In this case, some of that which was prophesied in the
          Revelation was not fulfilled under Nero (or Domitian) but will be
          in the final fulfilment. Along with the `mark of the Beast', the
          throwing of the Beast into the lake of fire (what ever that is), the
          new heavens and new earth are examples.

          Considering that the final fulfilment is yet to happen, it is
          interesting to me that it has not been until our day – and
          subsequently – that the technology has been available to
          effectively `number' the whole of the global population. Similarly
          the security systems which check a combination of peoples
          irises and fingerprints is not without interest. I have no wish to
          promote paranoia, but these things are worth watching.

          Sincerely,

          Kym Smith
          Adelaide
          South Australia
          khs@...
        • David L. Barr
          I find myself more or less amused by those who torture logic to apply Revelation to some supposed current event when the symbols and story fit so well into
          Message 4 of 14 , May 29, 2002
            I find myself more or less amused by those who torture logic to apply
            Revelation to some supposed current event when the symbols and story fit so
            well into John's own life context. As to the Mark, there are several
            possibilities; the one I prefer is:

            ---
            The second beast works by miracles and deception to gain worship of the
            first beast. Those who refuse are killed (13:15). Those who acquiesce are
            marked, on their foreheads and hands, with the mark/name of the beast: 666.
            Whether we understand this as an individual or corporate reference
            (discussed in the section on characterization above: p. 107-108), the
            meaning is to be found in the ancient metaphorical use of the body's parts.
            The head was the seat of authority and volition and thus the center of the
            spirit. The mark on the head signifies spiritual devotion to the beast.
            The hand represents action, production, and commerce. The mark on the hand
            signifies economic support for the beast. [See the discussion in Pilch and
            Malina Biblical Social Values]
            To understand how everyone is tainted by these marks one needs to understand
            how life was lived in first-century Roman Asia Minor. Literally every
            activity would involve one in some token recognition of the emperor (and his
            divinity) and of the Gods. Education began with reading Homer's ancient
            tales of Gods and heroes. Medicine was practiced in the name of Asclepius,
            God of healing. Entertainment consisted of sporting events (both the bloody
            arena and the Olympic Games) dedicated to the Gods and of the theater
            dedicated to Dionysus. Each performance began with a sacrifice to Dionysus
            whose altar stood at the front of every theater. To ply a trade meant to
            belong to a guild, but trade guilds were devoted to a patron deity regarded
            as the founder and protector of the craft. Mutual assistance societies (the
            ancient form of insurance) would gather in the name of some God or Goddess.
            The very coins by which one bought and sold, and paid one's taxes, testified
            to these Gods and Goddesses. And these coins most often bore some image of
            the emperor and an inscription claiming him to be "son of the divine
            Julius." Even if one avoided the direct worship of these "beasts" one's
            hand might still be marked in the daily round of commerce.
            In this scene of the two beasts John paints an almost wholly pessimistic
            picture: who can fight against the beast (13:4). Those who have followed
            the story this far might suspect they know the answer, and that suspicion is
            confirmed in the next scene.
            --From *Tales of the End* by David L. Barr (Polebridge, 1998)127.

            The "marking" is of course the counterfeit of the "sealing" of the holy
            ones; odd that no one imagines that Christians were (or will be) tattooed or
            embedded with divine computer chips.

            David L. Barr
            Professor of Religion
            Wright State University
            Dayton OH

            937-775-2293
            937-775-2707 (FAX)
            http://www.wright.edu/~david.barr
          • Ed Garcia
            This explanation is very interesting and clever but it disregards the plain reading of the text. John plainly states that people will be unable to buy or sell
            Message 5 of 14 , May 29, 2002
              This explanation is very interesting and clever but it disregards the plain
              reading of the text. John plainly states that people will be unable to buy
              or sell unless they receive the mark on the forehead or the right-hand. John
              talks about a mark on the hand not about carrying something around in the
              hand. Call me a literalist, but often times the plain meaning of a passage
              makes for the most reasonable interpretation. As for Christians being
              tattooed or embedded with divine computer chips....well Christians do not
              need the seal of the living God (spoken of in Rev. 7:2,3) in order to buy or
              sell.

              Another thing that amazes me is the number of books that emphasize the
              importance of The Roman empire in understanding the book of Revelation. Its
              importance is in many cases overblown.

              Ed Garcia
              Kansas

              -----Original Message-----
              From: David L. Barr [mailto:david.barr@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 8:39 AM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Mark of the Beast?



              I find myself more or less amused by those who torture logic to apply
              Revelation to some supposed current event when the symbols and story fit so
              well into John's own life context. As to the Mark, there are several
              possibilities; the one I prefer is:

              ---
              The second beast works by miracles and deception to gain worship of the
              first beast. Those who refuse are killed (13:15). Those who acquiesce are
              marked, on their foreheads and hands, with the mark/name of the beast: 666.
              Whether we understand this as an individual or corporate reference
              (discussed in the section on characterization above: p. 107-108), the
              meaning is to be found in the ancient metaphorical use of the body's parts.
              The head was the seat of authority and volition and thus the center of the
              spirit. The mark on the head signifies spiritual devotion to the beast.
              The hand represents action, production, and commerce. The mark on the hand
              signifies economic support for the beast. [See the discussion in Pilch and
              Malina Biblical Social Values]
              To understand how everyone is tainted by these marks one needs to understand
              how life was lived in first-century Roman Asia Minor. Literally every
              activity would involve one in some token recognition of the emperor (and his
              divinity) and of the Gods. Education began with reading Homer's ancient
              tales of Gods and heroes. Medicine was practiced in the name of Asclepius,
              God of healing. Entertainment consisted of sporting events (both the bloody
              arena and the Olympic Games) dedicated to the Gods and of the theater
              dedicated to Dionysus. Each performance began with a sacrifice to Dionysus
              whose altar stood at the front of every theater. To ply a trade meant to
              belong to a guild, but trade guilds were devoted to a patron deity regarded
              as the founder and protector of the craft. Mutual assistance societies (the
              ancient form of insurance) would gather in the name of some God or Goddess.
              The very coins by which one bought and sold, and paid one's taxes, testified
              to these Gods and Goddesses. And these coins most often bore some image of
              the emperor and an inscription claiming him to be "son of the divine
              Julius." Even if one avoided the direct worship of these "beasts" one's
              hand might still be marked in the daily round of commerce.
              In this scene of the two beasts John paints an almost wholly pessimistic
              picture: who can fight against the beast (13:4). Those who have followed
              the story this far might suspect they know the answer, and that suspicion is
              confirmed in the next scene.
              --From *Tales of the End* by David L. Barr (Polebridge, 1998)127.

              The "marking" is of course the counterfeit of the "sealing" of the holy
              ones; odd that no one imagines that Christians were (or will be) tattooed or
              embedded with divine computer chips.

              David L. Barr
              Professor of Religion
              Wright State University
              Dayton OH

              937-775-2293
              937-775-2707 (FAX)
              http://www.wright.edu/~david.barr

              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • Paul Anderson
              Thanks for your responses to my inquiry, Ed, and David and Kym. I do think the Roman Imperial culture was the historical backdrop for Revelation, and I
              Message 6 of 14 , May 29, 2002
                Thanks for your responses to my inquiry, Ed, and David and Kym. I do
                think the Roman Imperial culture was the historical backdrop for
                Revelation, and I imagine that loyalty to the Empire would have been
                demonstrated in some outward fashion, suggesting compliance with Rome.
                This is why I'm wondering what sort of archaeological or historical
                evidence there might have been which clarifies the right hand and forehead
                references to displaying the mark of the beast. If someone had offered a
                sacrifice to Caesar, or declared Caesar as Lord, for instance, how would
                such loyalty demonstrations have carried over beyond the event?

                Thanks!

                Paul Anderson
              • Jon Paulien
                Paul, You may not want to overlook a possible Jewish connection to the Mark of the Beast concept. In Deut 6:4-8 the commandments of God are to be worn on the
                Message 7 of 14 , May 29, 2002
                  Paul,

                  You may not want to overlook a possible Jewish connection to the Mark of the
                  Beast concept. In Deut 6:4-8 the commandments of God are to be worn on the
                  forehead and the hand. Since the commandments of God are mentioned in Rev
                  12:17 and 14:12 (and possibly alluded to in Rev 13), the Mark of the Beast
                  would highlight for John's audience the contrast between obedience to God on
                  the one hand and obedience to the secular and religious authorities of the
                  dominant culture on the other. If the "seal of God" concept is related to the
                  commandments, the contrast is heightened even further.

                  As Adela Collins has pointed out, the author of Rev is trying to move his
                  readers away from their attraction to social compromise to an either/or
                  commitment.

                  Jon Paulien
                  Andrews University

                  Paul Anderson wrote:

                  > Thanks for your responses to my inquiry, Ed, and David and Kym. I do
                  > think the Roman Imperial culture was the historical backdrop for
                  > Revelation, and I imagine that loyalty to the Empire would have been
                  > demonstrated in some outward fashion, suggesting compliance with Rome.
                  > This is why I'm wondering what sort of archaeological or historical
                  > evidence there might have been which clarifies the right hand and forehead
                  > references to displaying the mark of the beast. If someone had offered a
                  > sacrifice to Caesar, or declared Caesar as Lord, for instance, how would
                  > such loyalty demonstrations have carried over beyond the event?
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  >
                  > Paul Anderson
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Paul Anderson
                  ... Excellent point, Jon. Thanks! Paul
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 29, 2002
                    revelation-list@yahoogroups.com writes:
                    >Paul,
                    >
                    >You may not want to overlook a possible Jewish connection to the Mark of
                    >the
                    >Beast concept. In Deut 6:4-8 the commandments of God are to be worn on the
                    >forehead and the hand. Since the commandments of God are mentioned in Rev
                    >12:17 and 14:12 (and possibly alluded to in Rev 13), the Mark of the Beast
                    >would highlight for John's audience the contrast between obedience to God
                    >on
                    >the one hand and obedience to the secular and religious authorities of the
                    >dominant culture on the other. If the "seal of God" concept is related to
                    >the
                    >commandments, the contrast is heightened even further.
                    >
                    >As Adela Collins has pointed out, the author of Rev is trying to move his
                    >readers away from their attraction to social compromise to an either/or
                    >commitment.
                    >
                    >Jon Paulien
                    >Andrews University

                    Excellent point, Jon.

                    Thanks!

                    Paul
                  • Ed Garcia
                    Along the lines of Jon s comments, I have always found it fascinating to consider the mark of the beast in light of the mark of Cain in Genesis. Unless I am
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 29, 2002
                      Along the lines of Jon's comments, I have always found it fascinating to
                      consider the mark of the beast in light of the mark of Cain in Genesis.
                      Unless I am mistaken, certain Jewish writers wondered if the mark of Cain
                      could have been the letter tav/tau. The word itself (as I understand) means
                      "mark" and which early on resembled an X or a cross. It is the ancestor of
                      the Greek letter tau. I have not come to any conclusions but I do find it
                      interesting.

                      Ed Garcia
                      Kansas

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Jon Paulien [mailto:jonp@...]
                      Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:50 PM
                      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Mark of the Beast?


                      Paul,

                      You may not want to overlook a possible Jewish connection to the Mark of the
                      Beast concept. In Deut 6:4-8 the commandments of God are to be worn on the
                      forehead and the hand. Since the commandments of God are mentioned in Rev
                      12:17 and 14:12 (and possibly alluded to in Rev 13), the Mark of the Beast
                      would highlight for John's audience the contrast between obedience to God on
                      the one hand and obedience to the secular and religious authorities of the
                      dominant culture on the other. If the "seal of God" concept is related to
                      the
                      commandments, the contrast is heightened even further.

                      As Adela Collins has pointed out, the author of Rev is trying to move his
                      readers away from their attraction to social compromise to an either/or
                      commitment.

                      Jon Paulien
                      Andrews University

                      Paul Anderson wrote:

                      > Thanks for your responses to my inquiry, Ed, and David and Kym. I do
                      > think the Roman Imperial culture was the historical backdrop for
                      > Revelation, and I imagine that loyalty to the Empire would have been
                      > demonstrated in some outward fashion, suggesting compliance with Rome.
                      > This is why I'm wondering what sort of archaeological or historical
                      > evidence there might have been which clarifies the right hand and forehead
                      > references to displaying the mark of the beast. If someone had offered a
                      > sacrifice to Caesar, or declared Caesar as Lord, for instance, how would
                      > such loyalty demonstrations have carried over beyond the event?
                      >
                      > Thanks!
                      >
                      > Paul Anderson
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                    • David L. Barr
                      This is not at all the way I imagine things, based on what I know of the imperial cult. For a really fine and detailed treatment of what cult activities would
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 29, 2002
                        This is not at all the way I imagine things, based on what I know of the
                        imperial cult. For a really fine and detailed treatment of what cult
                        activities would look like, see:

                        Steven J. Friesen, Imperial Cults and the Apocalypse of John: Reading
                        Revelation in the Ruins. Oxford: Oxford Press University, 2001.

                        Steve has collected all the available archaeological and epigraphical
                        data and offers a fresh and insightful interpretation of it.

                        David
                        David L. Barr
                        Professor of Religion
                        Wright State University
                        Dayton OH

                        937-775-2293
                        937-775-2707 (FAX)
                        http://www.wright.edu/~david.barr


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Paul Anderson [mailto:panderso@...]
                        Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 1:58 PM
                        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: RE: [revelation-list] Re: Mark of the Beast?


                        Thanks for your responses to my inquiry, Ed, and David and Kym. I do
                        think the Roman Imperial culture was the historical backdrop for
                        Revelation, and I imagine that loyalty to the Empire would have been
                        demonstrated in some outward fashion, suggesting compliance with Rome.
                        This is why I'm wondering what sort of archaeological or historical
                        evidence there might have been which clarifies the right hand and
                        forehead references to displaying the mark of the beast. If someone had
                        offered a sacrifice to Caesar, or declared Caesar as Lord, for instance,
                        how would such loyalty demonstrations have carried over beyond the
                        event?

                        Thanks!

                        Paul Anderson



                        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      • kymhsm
                        Dear David, Thank you for your response. My response, in return, is a double one. Firstly, I felt somewhat chastened. As I was writing I had in mind the
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 29, 2002
                          Dear David,

                          Thank you for your response. My response, in return, is a double
                          one. Firstly, I felt somewhat chastened. As I was writing I had in
                          mind the sealing of the Spirit of which the mark of the Beast is
                          obviously a counterfeit:
                          "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, till we have sealed
                          the servants of our God on their foreheads" (Rev 7:3)
                          But in my haste I did not include it. So thank you for your clear
                          and, I think, correct explanation of the mark of the Beast.

                          Secondly, however, I do not see myself as one of <<those who
                          torture logic to apply Revelation to some supposed current
                          event>>. Because I see the Revelation as (at least)
                          double-layered, intended for the Church in Nero's time and for
                          the Church which will ultimately face the end (as I think much if
                          not most of OT prophecy is double layered with the renewal of
                          Israel often referring to the Church), then I also think that there
                          are parts of it yet to be played out.

                          I have no interest in trying to interpret every current event, but we
                          are called to be watchful. It is important that we are aware of the
                          spirit of our age and, ineveitably, there will aso be some 'events'
                          that are also significant. I was guilty of drawing an association
                          between Sept 11 with Rev 18 but only in the sense that it serves
                          as a reminder for us to be ever vigil.

                          While I have expressed agreement with your understanding of
                          the 'mark' above, with Ed, I do suspect that eventually the 'mark'
                          will have a much more tangible and immediate impact on the
                          faithful. The 'seal' prohibited (and prohibits) the believers from
                          engaging in certain practices of the world because of their/our
                          identification with Christ. The 'mark' , however, appears to be an
                          offensive of the Beast to isolate the faithful in a way that I think we
                          are yet to encounter. I may be wrong but that is the way I see it.

                          Sincerely,

                          Kym Smith
                          Adelaide
                          South Australia
                          khs@...
                        • Ian Paul
                          ... some ... I was persuaded by Allan Kerkeslager s argument that it was an image of Apollo representing false religion. The symbolism works and it fits better
                          Message 12 of 14 , May 30, 2002
                            >Any thoughts out there on the bow held by the 1st horseman? Chilton has
                            some
                            >interesting insights.

                            I was persuaded by Allan Kerkeslager's argument that it was an image of
                            Apollo representing false religion. The symbolism works and it fits better
                            with the other three horsemen as a sequence (in contrast to traditional
                            interpretations of it as a proleptic vision of Christ.)

                            Ian Paul
                            .......................
                            Revd Dr Ian Paul 32 Penn Hill Avenue, Poole, Dorset BH14 9LZ
                            01202 745963 fax 01202 385539
                            Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd, Ridley Hall Road, Cambridge CB3 9HU
                            01223 464748 fax 01223 464849
                            http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
                          • Don K
                            It seems to me that a better suggestion is to be found in Psalms 45:3-5, where the avenging Jehovah fairer than the sons of men is called to Gird a sword on
                            Message 13 of 14 , May 30, 2002
                              It seems to me that a better suggestion is to be found in Psalms 45:3-5,
                              where the avenging Jehovah "fairer than the sons of men" is called to Gird a
                              sword on your thigh O Mighty One With yo9ur glory and majesty And in your
                              majesty ride prosperously because of truth, humility, and righteousness, and
                              Your right hand shall teach You awesome things Your arrows are sharp in the
                              heart fo the King's enemies."
                              In the verses that follow we find the famous passage cited in Hebrews 1:8f
                              concerning the enthronement of the Messiah, Jesus.
                              Furthermore, in the Psalm, we find so many of the elements and themes
                              prevalent in the Apocalypse:
                              A conquering rider, with the sword of Jehovah on his thigh. (cf. 19:15, the
                              sword coming out of the mouth of the rider)
                              The righteousness of the rider asserted and emphasized.
                              The rider with arrows (i.e. the bow) to use against the enemies of
                              righteousness.
                              The rider identified as the Mighty One, (El Shaddai, can someone confirm the
                              Hebrew on this?), and of course, in the Apocalypse, the rider in chapter 19
                              is "the pantokratoros," (cf. 1:7-8), and King of kings.
                              It is also distinctly possible that Lamentations 2:4 is echoed in the
                              Apocalypse: "Standing like an enemy, He has bent His bow, with His right
                              hand like an adversary. He has slain all who were pleasing in His sight".
                              Since the Apocalypse is certainly about the judgment of the city "where the
                              Lord was slain" (11:8), it would be natural for a good "Jewish" author to
                              call the Lament to mind as he considered the impending catastrophe.
                              To me, these links are persuasive, and more congruent than an identification
                              with the Apollo myth.
                              Don K
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Ian Paul" <editor@...>
                              To: <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2002 3:24 AM
                              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Web site has moved


                              >
                              >
                              > >Any thoughts out there on the bow held by the 1st horseman? Chilton has
                              > some
                              > >interesting insights.
                              >
                              > I was persuaded by Allan Kerkeslager's argument that it was an image of
                              > Apollo representing false religion. The symbolism works and it fits better
                              > with the other three horsemen as a sequence (in contrast to traditional
                              > interpretations of it as a proleptic vision of Christ.)
                              >
                              > Ian Paul
                              > .......................
                              > Revd Dr Ian Paul 32 Penn Hill Avenue, Poole, Dorset BH14 9LZ
                              > 01202 745963 fax 01202 385539
                              > Also Managing Editor, Grove Books Ltd, Ridley Hall Road, Cambridge CB3 9HU
                              > 01223 464748 fax 01223 464849
                              > http://www.grovebooks.co.uk
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
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