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earthquake in Rev 11:13

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  • Juan Stam
    Greetings from Costa to fellow & sister apocalipticists, and thanks to Georg for his work on this list. I m wondering if anybody has any good ideas on the
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 19, 2001
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      Greetings from Costa to fellow & sister apocalipticists, and thanks to Georg
      for his work on this list.

      I'm wondering if anybody has any good ideas on the narrative function of the
      earthquake in 11.13. The meaning of the whole story of the two witnesses
      seems to be the power of our death and resurrection with Christ for
      prophetic witness, rather than the imposing powers of breathing fire and
      torturing the land, which accomplished nothing. To me, between the climax
      in 11.12 and the response of glorifying God at the end of 11.13 (very
      different from opposite response to sixth trumpet, 9:20-21), the earthquake
      seems an intrusion that weakens the central point of the story (prophet
      witness in the power of Christ's death and resurrection).

      I'm working my way through some solutions about this, but would be
      interested in how others see this question.

      Juan Stam
      Universidad Nacional, Costa Rica
    • profram@aol.com
      Good to hear from you, Juan, after months of silence from us all. I agree with your interpretation of the two witnesses in contrast to the futile series of
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 20, 2001
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        Good to hear from you, Juan, after months of silence from us all. I agree
        with your interpretation of the two witnesses in contrast to the futile
        series of seven trumpets. The blood of martyrs accomplishes what the thunder
        of judgment could not. But I had not noticed before the incongruity of the
        earthquake. I find on checking that I didn't say much about it in my
        commentary.

        I have two suggestions:

        (1) The earthquake is the one feature in the scene that resembles the
        judgments of chapters 8 and 9 (see 8:5, 11:19, 16:18). It shows that the
        judgment theme and the martyrdom theme, while distinct, are not totally
        disconnected. In this respect, it belongs perhaps with the judgments that the
        two witnesses were able to inflict during their period of power: withholding
        rain, turning rivers to blood, and other plagues (11:5-6).

        (2) I wonder if the earthquake is part of the imagery of resurrection,
        recalling the earthquake in connection with Christ's resurrection (Mt 28).
        Just as the city is one "where their Lord was crucified" (11:8), so the
        earthquake too helps us link their resurrection with that of their Lord.

        These two suggestions may be mutally exclusive, or possible one could combine
        them in some way. Just a thought.

        Cordially,

        Ramsey Michaels
      • Juan Stam
        Thanks so much, Ramsey! That s a big help, right along the lines I ve also been moving. Both your commentary and your Interpreting Revelation book are
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 20, 2001
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          Thanks so much, Ramsey! That's a big help, right along the lines I've also
          been moving. Both your commentary and your Interpreting Revelation book are
          regularly very helpful to me and I quote them in my Spanish commentary

          Good bless,

          Juan
        • Ecogen Rimont - Alain de Lassus
          ... Juan, I think you are basically right saying that the two witnesses story is about the power of our death and resurrection with Christ for prophetic
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 21, 2001
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            le 19/08/01 15:46, Juan Stam à jstam@... a écrit :

            >
            > Greetings from Costa to fellow & sister apocalipticists, and thanks to Georg
            > for his work on this list.
            >
            > I'm wondering if anybody has any good ideas on the narrative function of the
            > earthquake in 11.13. The meaning of the whole story of the two witnesses
            > seems to be the power of our death and resurrection with Christ for
            > prophetic witness, rather than the imposing powers of breathing fire and
            > torturing the land, which accomplished nothing. To me, between the climax
            > in 11.12 and the response of glorifying God at the end of 11.13 (very
            > different from opposite response to sixth trumpet, 9:20-21), the earthquake
            > seems an intrusion that weakens the central point of the story (prophet
            > witness in the power of Christ's death and resurrection).
            >
            > I'm working my way through some solutions about this, but would be
            > interested in how others see this question.
            >
            > Juan Stam
            > Universidad Nacional, Costa Rica
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            Juan,

            I think you are basically right saying that the two witnesses story is about
            the power of our death and resurrection with Christ for prophetic witness.
            I believe that the earthquake in Rev. 11:13 connects the two witnesses story
            not only to the resurrection of Christ (cf. Mt. 28:2) but also to 2 other
            passages in the NT which are "two witnesses stories" if I dare say: Acts 3:1
            - 4:31 and Acts 16:11-34. Notice that in both stories you find two disciples
            of Christ giving witness to Jesus in a context of persecution. The first
            story happens in the Temple while in the second Paul and Silas are praying.
            Both stories end by an earthquake and in the second you find an explicit
            report of conversion.
            I am obviously aware of the many differences between Acts and Revelation but
            I don't think these strong similarities happened just by chance.


            Alain de Lassus
            Ecole Saint Jean
            F - 71390 Fley
          • Don K. Preston
            Might I suggest that the concept of the two witnesses is not only related to the situation in Acts, but goes back to Luke 10, where Jesus sent out the
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 21, 2001
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              Might I suggest that the concept of the two witnesses is not only related to
              the situation in Acts, but goes back to Luke 10, where Jesus sent out the
              disciples "two by two." This was based, it would seem, on the Deuteronomic
              Law that on the testimony of two or three witnesses is a thing established.

              The "two by two" witnesses were empowered by the charismata to such an
              extent that Jesus proclaimed "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."
              I would suggest that there is a fourfold pattern from the Olivet Discourse
              that underlies the Apocalypse scene.

              That pattern is preaching, persecution, power, parousia. (I develop this
              pattern in my book Into All the World, Then Comes the End). Jesus told his
              disciples to go preaching the word. He said as they went preaching they
              would be persecuted (Mark 13:9f), but, when brought before the Sanhedrin and
              courts, not to give thought to their words, for they would be empowered by
              the Spirit. He then promised to come in vindication of their suffering
              (Matthew 24:9f/Mk. 13:26f). This fits the scene in Revelation quite well.
              The Two Witnesses preach, protected from the enemies (persecution), with the
              power of the Spirit. Finally, martyrdom overtakes them, but the resurrection
              (parousia) vindicates them.
              I find Matthew 23:29f to be the normative text in this regard, but will not
              discuss it at this juncture. I have already written enough here.
              Thanks to George for all of his work on the board, and it is good to see
              some activity once again.
              Don K

              The vindication of the martyrs
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Ecogen Rimont - Alain de Lassus <stjean.eg@...>
              To: Revelation List <revelation-list@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 9:05 AM
              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13


              > le 19/08/01 15:46, Juan Stam à jstam@... a écrit :
              >
              > >
              > > Greetings from Costa to fellow & sister apocalipticists, and thanks to
              Georg
              > > for his work on this list.
              > >
              > > I'm wondering if anybody has any good ideas on the narrative function of
              the
              > > earthquake in 11.13. The meaning of the whole story of the two witnesses
              > > seems to be the power of our death and resurrection with Christ for
              > > prophetic witness, rather than the imposing powers of breathing fire and
              > > torturing the land, which accomplished nothing. To me, between the
              climax
              > > in 11.12 and the response of glorifying God at the end of 11.13 (very
              > > different from opposite response to sixth trumpet, 9:20-21), the
              earthquake
              > > seems an intrusion that weakens the central point of the story (prophet
              > > witness in the power of Christ's death and resurrection).
              > >
              > > I'm working my way through some solutions about this, but would be
              > > interested in how others see this question.
              > >
              > > Juan Stam
              > > Universidad Nacional, Costa Rica
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > Juan,
              >
              > I think you are basically right saying that the two witnesses story is
              about
              > the power of our death and resurrection with Christ for prophetic witness.
              > I believe that the earthquake in Rev. 11:13 connects the two witnesses
              story
              > not only to the resurrection of Christ (cf. Mt. 28:2) but also to 2 other
              > passages in the NT which are "two witnesses stories" if I dare say: Acts
              3:1
              > - 4:31 and Acts 16:11-34. Notice that in both stories you find two
              disciples
              > of Christ giving witness to Jesus in a context of persecution. The first
              > story happens in the Temple while in the second Paul and Silas are
              praying.
              > Both stories end by an earthquake and in the second you find an explicit
              > report of conversion.
              > I am obviously aware of the many differences between Acts and Revelation
              but
              > I don't think these strong similarities happened just by chance.
              >
              >
              > Alain de Lassus
              > Ecole Saint Jean
              > F - 71390 Fley
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >
            • profram@aol.com
              In addition to Mt 28:2, notice the connection between resurrection and an earthquake at the time of Jesus crucifixion in Mt 27:52-55. Ramsey Michaels
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 21, 2001
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                In addition to Mt 28:2, notice the connection between resurrection and an
                earthquake at the time of Jesus' crucifixion in Mt 27:52-55.

                Ramsey Michaels
              • patsloane@aol.com
                I forgot where I read that the two witnesses are supposed to be Elijah (Elisha) and Moses. Maybe it was the Jerome Bible Commentary. Makes sense to me. If you
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 21, 2001
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                  I forgot where I read that the two witnesses are supposed to be Elijah
                  (Elisha) and Moses. Maybe it was the Jerome Bible Commentary. Makes sense to
                  me. If you remember, Christ is mistaken for Elisha in one of the Gospels,
                  because Elisha's return is expected.

                  For the earthquake, have you checked the passage where Elijah hears God as "a
                  still, small voice" in the mountains, but this is preceded by much turbulence
                  including an earthquake?

                  pat sloane
                  ==============================================
                  In a message dated 8/21/01 10:12:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                  stjean.eg@... writes:


                  I think you are basically right saying that the two witnesses story is about
                  the power of our death and resurrection with Christ for prophetic witness.
                  I believe that the earthquake in Rev. 11:13 connects the two witnesses story
                  not only to the resurrection of Christ (cf. Mt. 28:2) but also to 2 other
                  passages in the NT which are "two witnesses stories" if I dare say: Acts 3:1
                  - 4:31 and Acts 16:11-34. Notice that in both stories you find two disciples
                  of Christ giving witness to Jesus in a context of persecution. The first
                  story happens in the Temple while in the second Paul and Silas are praying.
                  Both stories end by an earthquake and in the second you find an explicit
                  report of conversion.
                  I am obviously aware of the many differences between Acts and Revelation but
                  I don't think these strong similarities happened just by chance.


                  Alain de Lassus
                  Ecole Saint Jean
                  F - 71390 Fley




                • Georg S. Adamsen
                  Greetings, Juan - and list members! The question about the narrative function of the earthquake is a good one. Bauckham wrote an article, which is included (in
                  Message 8 of 19 , Sep 2, 2001
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                    Greetings, Juan - and list members!

                    The question about the narrative function of the earthquake is a good
                    one. Bauckham wrote an article, which is included (in a perhaps updated
                    version) in his _Climax of Prophecy_. To my knowledge, in the OT
                    earthquakes are always associated with, indeed caused by, theophanies
                    (Pat Sloane's reference to the Elijah-passage is pertinent here). In my
                    thesis, which I will submit "soon" ;-), I argue that this is the case
                    also in Revelation. While it is rather obvious, as regards the
                    earthquakes in 6:12 and 16:18, it may also be the case in 11:13 and
                    11:19 (and, indeed, in 8:5). I admit that this view requires a sustained
                    argument (which is one of the reasons why I wrote my thesis).


                    Nevertheless, IF I am right, then it means that the earthquake in 11:13
                    is identical to the other theophanic earthquakes and thus occurs on the
                    day of God's and the Lamb's great wrath (cf. 6:12, 16f). The period of
                    the witnesses' testimony and (temporary death) is then terminated by the
                    coming of God and his Christ (cf. 11:15-18). The appearance of the ark
                    in 11:19 is then also a sign of a theophany. It is true, as Ramsey
                    Michaels notes, that also Matthew (Matt 27:54; 28:2) and Acts (16:26)
                    refer to earthquakes, but the reason may be that these events (as the
                    apocalyptic ones in Matt 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11) also are
                    theophanic.

                    My view raises some questions: When do the two witnesses begin to give
                    their testimony? What is their testimony? Does it make sense that it is
                    a sort of evangelistic work which leads to conversion (as Bauckham
                    argues in another chapter titled "The Conversion of the Nations", if my
                    memory serves)? Or does "the 3? days" (whatever the meaning of this time
                    phrase) separate their activity from the results of the earthquake, so
                    that the fact that the terrified people gave glory to God results from
                    the earthquake rather than from the witnesses' testimony? In fact,
                    Ramsey Michaels also notes that the two witnesses inflict judgment (and
                    I agree with that). It is therefore questionable whether their prophecy
                    is an act of evangelistic testimony. I also doubt whether the results in
                    11:13 are different from those in 9:20f. I remain unconvinced that the
                    homage in 11:13 is an expression of conversion. Rather, I suggest that
                    the incongruity results from an inadequate interpretation of 11:3-13
                    rather than from inconsistencies in Revelation.

                    I look forward to hearing your reactions.

                    Georg (S. Adamsen, The Lutheran School of Theology in Aarhus).


                    PS: Alain de Lassus associates the witnesses in Rev 11 with the
                    disciples in Acts, but I am not sure whether this is useful. The
                    disciples and the witnesses are described in different ways. Is there
                    really anything disciple-like in Rev 11? To me it seems that the two
                    witnesses are rather described as Moses and Elijah (cf. Pat Sloane). I
                    think there is an explanation for the similarities, but perhaps not the
                    one suggested by Alain.
                  • Alan Missen
                    Georg You comment concerning the Two Witnesses, It is therefore questionable whether their prophecy is an act of evangelistic testimony. I also doubt whether
                    Message 9 of 19 , Sep 2, 2001
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                      Georg
                       
                      You comment concerning the Two Witnesses,
                      It is therefore questionable whether their prophecy is an act of evangelistic testimony. I also doubt whether the results in 11:13 are different from those in 9:20f. I remain unconvinced that the
                      homage in 11:13 is an expression of conversion. Rather, I suggest that
                      the incongruity results from an inadequate interpretation of 11:3-13
                      rather than from inconsistencies in Revelation.
                      Does Rev 11.13 indicate conversion, with the amazing associated reversals suggested by Bauckham ("The Climax of Prophecy"), or does it indicate a response that falls short of conversion, as Beale argues in his commentary?
                       
                      For me, the connections within the Apocalypse to 14.7 and 15.4 are supportive of conversion.
                       
                      The comparisons are as follows:
                       
                      Rev 11.13 "the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven."
                       
                      Rev 14.7 "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."
                       
                      Rev 15.4 "Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
                       
                      I think that any line of interpretation on Rev 11.13 needs to also take these other passages into account.  Commenting on 14.7, Beale concedes that
                       
                      ... "glory" is given to God in the Apocalypse only by beings who are part of God's spiritual community (so twelve times). Similarly, "worship" of God is always carried out by true believers or angelic beings (so twelve times). Those who "worship the beast" (v 9) are exhorted to repent and "worship the Creator." (Commentary, p. 753)
                       
                      Although Beale sees the response called for in 14.7 as one that does not result in conversion, he concedes that the interpretation of "worship" (proskuneo) that is then required is at odds with its use in the rest of the Apocalypse.
                       
                      What do others think?
                       
                      Alan Missen
                       
                      Alan and Sue Missen
                      31 Westhaven Drive
                      Tawa, Wellington
                      New Zealand
                      Ph. 64-4-232-5772
                    • profram@aol.com
                      In a message dated 9/2/2001 11:55:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, georg.adamsen@12move.dk writes:
                      Message 10 of 19 , Sep 3, 2001
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                        In a message dated 9/2/2001 11:55:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                        georg.adamsen@... writes:

                        << I also doubt whether the results in
                        11:13 are different from those in 9:20f. I remain unconvinced that the
                        homage in 11:13 is an expression of conversion. >>

                        Thanks for your observations, Georg. While I agree that the two witnesses'
                        ministry is not exactly evangelistic prophecy (for it does have overtones of
                        judgment), I do see the result as conversion, at least on a limited scale. My
                        best argument, I think, is the contrast between 11:13 ("gave glory to God")
                        and 16:9 ("they did not repent so as to give him glory"). The latter echoes
                        9:22; the former stands in contrast to it.

                        Ramsey Michaels
                      • Georg S. Adamsen
                        Thanks for your replies, Ramsey and Alan. I do not say that it is not perhaps a possible interpretation. I just say that I am unconvinced. As far as I can see,
                        Message 11 of 19 , Sep 4, 2001
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                          Thanks for your replies, Ramsey and Alan. I do not say that it is
                          not perhaps a possible interpretation. I just say that I am
                          unconvinced. As far as I can see, the "overtones of judgment" is
                          more than just that. It is acts of judgment (11:6). I do not think
                          that this issue has been explained yet.

                          Regarding giving glory to God, 11:13 is not exactly in contrast to
                          9:20f and 16:9. It is true that the people in 16:9 "did not repent
                          so as to give him glory", but in 16:9 the glorification is
                          explicitly (not) a result of conversion while in 11:13 it is a
                          result of the rest being terrified. The point at issue is thus
                          whether 'to be terrified' is an expression of conversion not (only)
                          whether 'to give glory' is. I Why should not all people give glory
                          to God when he comes? Indeed, is this not what 15:4 says will
                          happen? Cf. 18:10, 15 and further 19:5 and 11:18. It seems to me
                          that all, both believers (followers of the Lamb etc) and
                          non-believers (etc), will fear.

                          Concerning 14:7 and 15:4, does PROSKUNEW indicate conversion? Alan
                          says yes, but this is not so obvious to me. The use of the
                          glorification motif is circular in this case. In the discussion of
                          11:13 it is problematic to cite 15:4 with the claim that "...
                          "glory" is given to God in the Apocalypse only by beings who are
                          part of God's spiritual community (so twelve times)" (Alan's quote
                          of Beale). I also question whether 15:4 really supports this claim.
                          In addition, PROSKUNEW does certainly not always indicate conversion
                          or the believers' worship. In 3:9 it refers to the homage that the
                          philadelphians will receive. I don't think that this homage is a
                          result of conversion. It is true that 3:9 does not pertain to the
                          relationship between human beings and God, but 3:9 at least shows
                          that PROSKUNEW may be used about homage in general, probably forced
                          homage as a result of a fundamental reversal of roles. I suspects
                          that this is the case in 11:13; 14:7 and 15:4 as well.

                          Georg (S. Adamsen)
                        • IAN BROWN
                          Georg, I find it difficult to identify the earthquake in 11:13 with those in 6:12 and 16:18. First, the whole city is affected in 16 and all the cities of the
                          Message 12 of 19 , Sep 6, 2001
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                            Georg,
                            I find it difficult to identify the earthquake in 11:13 with those in 6:12
                            and 16:18.
                            First, the whole city is affected in 16 and all the cities of the nations
                            fall, while only a portion of the city is affected in 11:13.
                            Second, 10:6-7 and 11:14 suggest that the end has not arrived yet in 11:13.
                            Third, those who suffer the seven plagues, yet do not seem to be explicitly
                            killed, blaspheme God and do not give him glory. This contrasts with a
                            group who escape death and do give God glory.
                            Fourth, there is no mention of God's wrath, which is characteristic of the
                            contexts of 6:12 and 16:18.
                            The first and the second reasons hold the most weight for me.

                            Ian R. Brown
                            Ph.D. student
                            Andrews University

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Georg S. Adamsen [mailto:georg.adamsen@...]
                            Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 11:56 AM
                            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13


                            Greetings, Juan - and list members!

                            The question about the narrative function of the earthquake is a good
                            one. Bauckham wrote an article, which is included (in a perhaps updated
                            version) in his _Climax of Prophecy_. To my knowledge, in the OT
                            earthquakes are always associated with, indeed caused by, theophanies
                            (Pat Sloane's reference to the Elijah-passage is pertinent here). In my
                            thesis, which I will submit "soon" ;-), I argue that this is the case
                            also in Revelation. While it is rather obvious, as regards the
                            earthquakes in 6:12 and 16:18, it may also be the case in 11:13 and
                            11:19 (and, indeed, in 8:5). I admit that this view requires a sustained
                            argument (which is one of the reasons why I wrote my thesis).


                            Nevertheless, IF I am right, then it means that the earthquake in 11:13
                            is identical to the other theophanic earthquakes and thus occurs on the
                            day of God's and the Lamb's great wrath (cf. 6:12, 16f). The period of
                            the witnesses' testimony and (temporary death) is then terminated by the
                            coming of God and his Christ (cf. 11:15-18). The appearance of the ark
                            in 11:19 is then also a sign of a theophany. It is true, as Ramsey
                            Michaels notes, that also Matthew (Matt 27:54; 28:2) and Acts (16:26)
                            refer to earthquakes, but the reason may be that these events (as the
                            apocalyptic ones in Matt 24:7; Mark 13:8; Luke 21:11) also are
                            theophanic.

                            My view raises some questions: When do the two witnesses begin to give
                            their testimony? What is their testimony? Does it make sense that it is
                            a sort of evangelistic work which leads to conversion (as Bauckham
                            argues in another chapter titled "The Conversion of the Nations", if my
                            memory serves)? Or does "the 3? days" (whatever the meaning of this time
                            phrase) separate their activity from the results of the earthquake, so
                            that the fact that the terrified people gave glory to God results from
                            the earthquake rather than from the witnesses' testimony? In fact,
                            Ramsey Michaels also notes that the two witnesses inflict judgment (and
                            I agree with that). It is therefore questionable whether their prophecy
                            is an act of evangelistic testimony. I also doubt whether the results in
                            11:13 are different from those in 9:20f. I remain unconvinced that the
                            homage in 11:13 is an expression of conversion. Rather, I suggest that
                            the incongruity results from an inadequate interpretation of 11:3-13
                            rather than from inconsistencies in Revelation.

                            I look forward to hearing your reactions.

                            Georg (S. Adamsen, The Lutheran School of Theology in Aarhus).


                            PS: Alain de Lassus associates the witnesses in Rev 11 with the
                            disciples in Acts, but I am not sure whether this is useful. The
                            disciples and the witnesses are described in different ways. Is there
                            really anything disciple-like in Rev 11? To me it seems that the two
                            witnesses are rather described as Moses and Elijah (cf. Pat Sloane). I
                            think there is an explanation for the similarities, but perhaps not the
                            one suggested by Alain.



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                            revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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                          • Georg S. Adamsen
                            Hi Alan Two monts ago we discussed Rev 11:13. Then I had to concentrate on other issues. I remain unconvinced that Rev 14:7 and 15:4 supports that 11:13 refers
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 3, 2001
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                              Hi Alan
                               
                              Two monts ago we discussed Rev 11:13. Then I had to concentrate on other issues.
                               
                              I remain unconvinced that Rev 14:7 and 15:4 supports that 11:13 refers to conversion. First, to give God glory and to worship him does not necessarily imply conversion. Rather, both in 11:13 and 14:7 they give glory to God due to fear, not to faith and a proper salvific relationship to God and Christ. In Rev 14:7 either those who will be judged or all must worship God since he will know judge. Thus, all will be forced to acknowedge him as God and judge etc., but this does not mean that they repent and are saved.
                              Rev 15:4 does not specify whether the nations will come and worship due to fear -- or they are the nations who worship in faith. Thus, to give glory to God is an acknowledgement of God's majesty etc., but it does not necessarily express faith and a salvific relationship.
                               
                              Terminologically, to give glory, fear and be terrified are either negative or ambiguous terms. This is also the case with proskunew. This verb is used in 3:9 where it refers to those who will suffer the great reversal of roles (cf. the underlying Isaiah text). Thus, the use of proskunew does not necessarily imply conversion, but only their ackknowledgement etc. of God's majesty and power. On its own it means 'to prostrate oneself as an act of homage, worship or obeisance'. Only the context makes clear which meaning it has in each case. In 3:9; 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 11:16 and 19:4 it is not an act of faith by converted people, but an act of homage by his angelic "courtiers".
                               
                              What is explicitly stated, however, is that the plagues in ch. 9 and 16 do not lead to repentance. It is possible that 11:13 describes repentance, but in my view it is only a possible interpretation, not the most likely one. The relationship to Christ is neither mentioned nor hinted at in any way in 11:13. Acts of judgment (Rev 11) should not be expected to lead to judgment. Indeed, the other judgment plagues in Rev 9 and 16 are explicitly said not to lead to conversion/repentance.
                               
                              Georg S. Adamsen
                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: Alan Missen [mailto:westhaven@...]
                              Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 11:51 PM
                              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13

                              Georg
                               
                              You comment concerning the Two Witnesses,
                              It is therefore questionable whether their prophecy is an act of evangelistic testimony. I also doubt whether the results in 11:13 are different from those in 9:20f. I remain unconvinced that the
                              homage in 11:13 is an expression of conversion. Rather, I suggest that
                              the incongruity results from an inadequate interpretation of 11:3-13
                              rather than from inconsistencies in Revelation.
                              Does Rev 11.13 indicate conversion, with the amazing associated reversals suggested by Bauckham ("The Climax of Prophecy"), or does it indicate a response that falls short of conversion, as Beale argues in his commentary?
                               
                              For me, the connections within the Apocalypse to 14.7 and 15.4 are supportive of conversion.
                               
                              The comparisons are as follows:
                               
                              Rev 11.13 "the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven."
                               
                              Rev 14.7 "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."
                               
                              Rev 15.4 "Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
                               
                              I think that any line of interpretation on Rev 11.13 needs to also take these other passages into account.  Commenting on 14.7, Beale concedes that
                               
                              ... "glory" is given to God in the Apocalypse only by beings who are part of God's spiritual community (so twelve times). Similarly, "worship" of God is always carried out by true believers or angelic beings (so twelve times). Those who "worship the beast" (v 9) are exhorted to repent and "worship the Creator." (Commentary, p. 753)
                               
                              Although Beale sees the response called for in 14.7 as one that does not result in conversion, he concedes that the interpretation of "worship" (proskuneo) that is then required is at odds with its use in the rest of the Apocalypse.
                               
                              What do others think?
                               
                              Alan Missen
                            • Georg S. Adamsen
                              Ian, As regards your first reason I and many others have also noticed this development from a partial judgment in ch. 6ff to the complete judgment in 15f.
                              Message 14 of 19 , Nov 3, 2001
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                                Ian,

                                As regards your first reason I and many others have also noticed this
                                development from a partial judgment in ch. 6ff to the complete judgment
                                in 15f. However, I think there are reasons which support that the
                                partial judgment is nevertheless the judgment of the Day of Judgment and
                                the parousia. The theophanic earthquake is one of these.

                                As regards your second reason, Rev 10:6 explicitly says that "there will
                                no further delay", which means that the end has arrived.

                                Georg S. Adamsen

                                > -----Original Message-----
                                > From: IAN BROWN [mailto:irbrown@...]
                                > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:10 PM
                                > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: RE: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13
                                >
                                >
                                > Georg,
                                > I find it difficult to identify the earthquake in 11:13 with
                                > those in 6:12
                                > and 16:18.
                                > First, the whole city is affected in 16 and all the cities of
                                > the nations
                                > fall, while only a portion of the city is affected in 11:13.
                                > Second, 10:6-7 and 11:14 suggest that the end has not arrived
                                > yet in 11:13.
                                > Third, those who suffer the seven plagues, yet do not seem to
                                > be explicitly
                                > killed, blaspheme God and do not give him glory. This
                                > contrasts with a
                                > group who escape death and do give God glory.
                                > Fourth, there is no mention of God's wrath, which is
                                > characteristic of the
                                > contexts of 6:12 and 16:18.
                                > The first and the second reasons hold the most weight for me.
                                >
                                > Ian R. Brown
                                > Ph.D. student
                                > Andrews University
                              • Alan Missen
                                Dear Georg Thanks for your comments on the above issue. I certainly agree that the argument for 11:13 referring to conversion is open to debate. However, your
                                Message 15 of 19 , Nov 3, 2001
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                                  Dear Georg
                                   
                                  Thanks for your comments on the above issue.  I certainly agree that the argument for 11:13 referring to conversion is open to debate.
                                   
                                  However, your comments raise two further questions.
                                   
                                  The first derives from your argument about proskunew.
                                  Whether the 24 elders are seen as angelic beings, or representatives of the redeemed, they are still in a position FOR God rather than one of neutrality or opposition.
                                   
                                  QUESTION 1:
                                  If the use of prosunew in Rev 14.7 and 15.4 does not imply a stance of faith, is this accepted as a genuine possibility? Does scripture elsewhere, and even other apocalyptic writings, support such a stance of unbelieving worship in God?
                                   
                                  QUESTION 2:
                                  Where then does Revelation contain, for the bulk of the unbelieving world, the opportunity for a faith reponse in the God of the universe?  Or is it a question of John presenting a "point of no return"?
                                   
                                  Blessings
                                  Alan Missen
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 12:42 PM
                                  Subject: RE: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13

                                  Hi Alan
                                   
                                  Two monts ago we discussed Rev 11:13. Then I had to concentrate on other issues.
                                   
                                  I remain unconvinced that Rev 14:7 and 15:4 supports that 11:13 refers to conversion. First, to give God glory and to worship him does not necessarily imply conversion. Rather, both in 11:13 and 14:7 they give glory to God due to fear, not to faith and a proper salvific relationship to God and Christ. In Rev 14:7 either those who will be judged or all must worship God since he will know judge. Thus, all will be forced to acknowedge him as God and judge etc., but this does not mean that they repent and are saved.
                                  Rev 15:4 does not specify whether the nations will come and worship due to fear -- or they are the nations who worship in faith. Thus, to give glory to God is an acknowledgement of God's majesty etc., but it does not necessarily express faith and a salvific relationship.
                                   
                                  Terminologically, to give glory, fear and be terrified are either negative or ambiguous terms. This is also the case with proskunew. This verb is used in 3:9 where it refers to those who will suffer the great reversal of roles (cf. the underlying Isaiah text). Thus, the use of proskunew does not necessarily imply conversion, but only their ackknowledgement etc. of God's majesty and power. On its own it means 'to prostrate oneself as an act of homage, worship or obeisance'. Only the context makes clear which meaning it has in each case. In 3:9; 4:10; 5:14; 7:11; 11:16 and 19:4 it is not an act of faith by converted people, but an act of homage by his angelic "courtiers".
                                   
                                  What is explicitly stated, however, is that the plagues in ch. 9 and 16 do not lead to repentance. It is possible that 11:13 describes repentance, but in my view it is only a possible interpretation, not the most likely one. The relationship to Christ is neither mentioned nor hinted at in any way in 11:13. Acts of judgment (Rev 11) should not be expected to lead to judgment. Indeed, the other judgment plagues in Rev 9 and 16 are explicitly said not to lead to conversion/repentance.
                                   
                                  Georg S. Adamsen
                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: Alan Missen [mailto:westhaven@...]
                                  Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 11:51 PM
                                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13

                                  Georg
                                   
                                  You comment concerning the Two Witnesses,
                                  It is therefore questionable whether their prophecy is an act of evangelistic testimony. I also doubt whether the results in 11:13 are different from those in 9:20f. I remain unconvinced that the
                                  homage in 11:13 is an expression of conversion. Rather, I suggest that
                                  the incongruity results from an inadequate interpretation of 11:3-13
                                  rather than from inconsistencies in Revelation.
                                  Does Rev 11.13 indicate conversion, with the amazing associated reversals suggested by Bauckham ("The Climax of Prophecy"), or does it indicate a response that falls short of conversion, as Beale argues in his commentary?
                                   
                                  For me, the connections within the Apocalypse to 14.7 and 15.4 are supportive of conversion.
                                   
                                  The comparisons are as follows:
                                   
                                  Rev 11.13 "the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven."
                                   
                                  Rev 14.7 "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water."
                                   
                                  Rev 15.4 "Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
                                   
                                  I think that any line of interpretation on Rev 11.13 needs to also take these other passages into account.  Commenting on 14.7, Beale concedes that
                                   
                                  ... "glory" is given to God in the Apocalypse only by beings who are part of God's spiritual community (so twelve times). Similarly, "worship" of God is always carried out by true believers or angelic beings (so twelve times). Those who "worship the beast" (v 9) are exhorted to repent and "worship the Creator." (Commentary, p. 753)
                                   
                                  Although Beale sees the response called for in 14.7 as one that does not result in conversion, he concedes that the interpretation of "worship" (proskuneo) that is then required is at odds with its use in the rest of the Apocalypse.
                                   
                                  What do others think?
                                   
                                  Alan Missen


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                                • Georg S. Adamsen
                                  Dear Alan As regards your first question, your question presupposes that proskunew means worship . If you translate proskunew differently (and I argued in my
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Nov 4, 2001
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                                    Dear Alan
                                     
                                    As regards your first question, your question presupposes that proskunew means "worship". If you translate proskunew differently (and I argued in my last letter in this thread that this is possible), then the incongruence between PROSKUNHSIS and non-salvation is diminished. Proskunew does not necessarily mean worship in the positive sense in which we normally use it, at least not in Revelation. And yes, they are in a position where they can acknowledge God as God, i.e. they will no longer be able to deny his existence, majesty, royal power etc. However, as a forced acknowledgement, it is not salvific. In Rev 14:10 the third angel announces that they who worship the beasts (v. 9) "will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb". It is this presence which is not salvific, but the judgment which includes that they will know that God is the Lord. All will see Christ (1:7), but this does not mean that all will be saved. That all will be forced to acknowledge God, namely on the Day of the Lord, is a Biblical notion, I think. See below on 6:15-17.
                                     
                                    As regards your second question: Revelation does not primarily deal with the unbelieving world. It is explicitly addressed to churches, some of which are in need of repentance. What Revelation does is to urge those to repent before Christ comes. If they do, he will come as their bridegroom and save them on that Day. If not, he will come as the divine warrior and judge and make war against them and judge them. The opportunity and call for renewed faith is expressed by the exhortations in Rev 2-3. What Rev 4-22 describes is indeed "the point of no return". The earthquake(s) in Revelation is/are the very result of God's theophany and the terror (cf. 6:15-17) results in a recognition of what is happening and of what the reason is, namely the coming of God and his Christ. I think that 11:13 which also mentions this theophanic earthquake is parallel to Rev 6:12-17. It is, therefore, a point of no return. Consequently, it is important, indeed essential, to respond appropriately to the exhortations in Rev 2-3. This, in short, is the main argument of my thesis "Parousia and Paraenesis: The Parousia Motif and Its Paraenetic Use in the Book of Revelation" which I submitted recently.
                                     
                                    However, if this is the options for the churches, then it also essential for the unbelieving world to repent and believe in Christ. This is, however, not the primary purporse of Revelation, but a legitimate theological deduction. In this sense (only) Revelation is a missional document, in my view at least.
                                     
                                    I hope this may contribute some aspects to your questions, but I will be happy to pursue these issues further.
                                     
                                    Georg S. Adamsen
                                    Ass. Prof. of NT, LSTA
                                     
                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: Alan Missen [mailto:westhaven@...]
                                    Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 4:08 AM
                                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13

                                    Dear Georg
                                     
                                    Thanks for your comments on the above issue.  I certainly agree that the argument for 11:13 referring to conversion is open to debate.
                                     
                                    However, your comments raise two further questions.
                                     
                                    The first derives from your argument about proskunew.
                                    Whether the 24 elders are seen as angelic beings, or representatives of the redeemed, they are still in a position FOR God rather than one of neutrality or opposition.
                                     
                                    QUESTION 1:
                                    If the use of prosunew in Rev 14.7 and 15.4 does not imply a stance of faith, is this accepted as a genuine possibility? Does scripture elsewhere, and even other apocalyptic writings, support such a stance of unbelieving worship in God?
                                     
                                    QUESTION 2:
                                    Where then does Revelation contain, for the bulk of the unbelieving world, the opportunity for a faith reponse in the God of the universe?  Or is it a question of John presenting a "point of no return"?
                                     
                                    Blessings
                                    Alan Missen
                                  • irbrown@andrews.edu
                                    Georg, Let me say a bit more about my second reason involving Rev 10:6-7. Rev 10:6-7 exhibits the construction OUKETI . . . ALLA . . . showing a strong
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 4, 2001
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                                      Georg,
                                      Let me say a bit more about my second reason involving Rev 10:6-7.

                                      Rev 10:6-7 exhibits the construction OUKETI . . . ALLA . . . showing a strong
                                      contrast (Cf. the uses of this construction and its variations throughout the
                                      NT and also see BDF 448[1]). The first clause by saying “Time/delay will be no
                                      longer” points to a future point at which the delay ends. The second clause
                                      points to what stands in place of that delay, the completed mystery of God. In
                                      addition, the second clause pinpoints the time at which this reality occurs (in
                                      the days of the sound of the seventh angel, when he is about to trumpet).
                                      These temporal indicators also implicitly pinpoint the time at which the delay
                                      ends. Given that in the panorama of the trumpets the seventh has yet to sound
                                      (note Rev 11:14-15), it seems evident that the delay is not over when the angel
                                      makes his declaration in Rev 10:6-7.

                                      Before returning to the relevancy of this to Rev 11:13, let me comment further
                                      on the delay. I feel that this delay refers back to the delay/time mentioned
                                      in the fifth seal. This is the delay before the rendering of the justice
                                      called for by the slain people of God. When one examines the language of the
                                      fifth seal, the sixth seal, and Rev 15-19, one finds that the rendering of the
                                      justice is the outpouring of God’s wrath, shown briefly in the sixth seal and
                                      more fully in 15-19. To support this point, I encourage people to examine the
                                      verbal and thematic parallels existing between the fifth and sixth seals on the
                                      one hand and Rev 15-19 on the other. I could outline them here, but that would
                                      take up many more screens. Keeping all of this in mind about the delay, when
                                      one looks at Rev 10:6-7, it would appear to identify when God will render the
                                      called for justice. That justice will come in conjunction with the seventh
                                      trumpet. And that justice involves an earthquake (6:12 and 16:18).

                                      Back to Rev 11:13 now. The following two verses (14-15) have the ending of the
                                      second woe and the coming of the seventh trumpet (the third woe?). This
                                      suggests that Rev 11:13 refers to an earthquake prior to the seventh trumpet,
                                      prior to the rendering of justice and the earthquake of 6:12 and 16:18, and
                                      therefore an earthquake different from that of 6:12 and 16:18.

                                      This suggestion becomes even stronger for me when taking into consideration the
                                      other reasons I mentioned (partiality of the earthquake in 11:13, no mention of
                                      God’s wrath in 11:13, and a contrasting response among those living through the
                                      experience of 11:13).

                                      Ian R. Brown
                                      Ph.D. student
                                      Andrews University

                                      Quoting "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg.adamsen@...>:

                                      > Ian,
                                      >
                                      > As regards your first reason I and many others have also noticed this
                                      > development from a partial judgment in ch. 6ff to the complete judgment
                                      > in 15f. However, I think there are reasons which support that the
                                      > partial judgment is nevertheless the judgment of the Day of Judgment
                                      > and
                                      > the parousia. The theophanic earthquake is one of these.
                                      >
                                      > As regards your second reason, Rev 10:6 explicitly says that "there
                                      > will
                                      > no further delay", which means that the end has arrived.
                                      >
                                      > Georg S. Adamsen
                                      >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: IAN BROWN [mailto:irbrown@...]
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:10 PM
                                      > > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Subject: RE: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Georg,
                                      > > I find it difficult to identify the earthquake in 11:13 with
                                      > > those in 6:12
                                      > > and 16:18.
                                      > > First, the whole city is affected in 16 and all the cities of
                                      > > the nations
                                      > > fall, while only a portion of the city is affected in 11:13.
                                      > > Second, 10:6-7 and 11:14 suggest that the end has not arrived
                                      > > yet in 11:13.
                                      > > Third, those who suffer the seven plagues, yet do not seem to
                                      > > be explicitly
                                      > > killed, blaspheme God and do not give him glory. This
                                      > > contrasts with a
                                      > > group who escape death and do give God glory.
                                      > > Fourth, there is no mention of God's wrath, which is
                                      > > characteristic of the
                                      > > contexts of 6:12 and 16:18.
                                      > > The first and the second reasons hold the most weight for me.
                                      > >
                                      > > Ian R. Brown
                                      > > Ph.D. student
                                      > > Andrews University
                                      >
                                      >
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                                    • Georg S. Adamsen
                                      Hi Ian I agree that there is a contrast in the OUKETI ... ALLA construction, but not that this proves your point. First, that the delay will end only expresses
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 4, 2001
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                                        Hi Ian

                                        I agree that there is a contrast in the OUKETI ... ALLA construction,
                                        but not that this proves your point. First, that the delay will end only
                                        expresses a terminus ad quem, not a terminus a quo. Second, the fact you
                                        mention yourself, namely that the fifth and sixth seal and Rev 15f and
                                        17-19 employ judgment language, indicates that the judgment events
                                        called for is rather begun already with the fifth and indeed the first
                                        four seals. The "end" is not a flat one action event, but a series of
                                        events which takes place at the Day of the Lord. The ultimate judgment,
                                        however, must await something (cf. the fifth seal). The important
                                        question for the determination of the terminus a quo is then at what
                                        time the fifth seal will take place. If it is possible to show that it
                                        is part of the events which will happen at the Day of judgment, then
                                        your argument is less convincing.

                                        I do not accept that the mention of the second and third woe (i.e. the
                                        sixth and seventh trumpet) indicates a significant temporal progression
                                        so that the sixth seal (and the first five as well) could not also take
                                        place at the Day of Judgment. The reason why I do not accept this is
                                        that at least the sixth seal refer to the day of God and His Christ's
                                        wrath, i.e. to the Day of Judgment. The progression at the textual level
                                        (the discourse level, to use e.g. Seymour Chatman's terminology) does
                                        thus not necessarily imply a (significant) chronological progression at
                                        the level of the events which the text describes (i.e. the story level).
                                        (There are certain similarities between this discussion and the
                                        well-known between so-called recapitulationists and progressionists. I
                                        disagree with both). If this is so, then the partiality may belong to
                                        either the discourse level or to the story level. You presuppose, I
                                        think, the latter. I would opt for the former for the reason that Rev
                                        6,1ff also makes use of judgment language. It is true that God's wrath
                                        is not explicitly mentioned in 11:13, but it is presupposed because in
                                        theophanic language earthquake is the result of God's appearance,
                                        normally or most often (I do not remember the deatails of this
                                        particular point right now) before his enemies. Moreover, the earthquake
                                        could last more than a single second, e.g. an hour, such as the hour of
                                        judgment.

                                        Finally, is not the future used sometimes about what is and will be from
                                        the time of speaking? This seems to me to be the case in e.g. Rev
                                        7:15-17.

                                        Georg S. Adamsen, LSTA

                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: irbrown@... [mailto:irbrown@...]
                                        > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 3:50 PM
                                        > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Subject: RE: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Georg,
                                        > Let me say a bit more about my second reason involving Rev 10:6-7.
                                        >
                                        > Rev 10:6-7 exhibits the construction OUKETI . . . ALLA . . .
                                        > showing a strong
                                        > contrast (Cf. the uses of this construction and its
                                        > variations throughout the
                                        > NT and also see BDF 448[1]). The first clause by saying
                                        > “Time/delay will be no
                                        > longer” points to a future point at which the delay ends.
                                        > The second clause
                                        > points to what stands in place of that delay, the completed
                                        > mystery of God. In
                                        > addition, the second clause pinpoints the time at which this
                                        > reality occurs (in
                                        > the days of the sound of the seventh angel, when he is about
                                        > to trumpet).
                                        > These temporal indicators also implicitly pinpoint the time
                                        > at which the delay
                                        > ends. Given that in the panorama of the trumpets the seventh
                                        > has yet to sound
                                        > (note Rev 11:14-15), it seems evident that the delay is not
                                        > over when the angel
                                        > makes his declaration in Rev 10:6-7.
                                        >
                                        > Before returning to the relevancy of this to Rev 11:13, let
                                        > me comment further
                                        > on the delay. I feel that this delay refers back to the
                                        > delay/time mentioned
                                        > in the fifth seal. This is the delay before the rendering of
                                        > the justice
                                        > called for by the slain people of God. When one examines the
                                        > language of the
                                        > fifth seal, the sixth seal, and Rev 15-19, one finds that the
                                        > rendering of the
                                        > justice is the outpouring of God’s wrath, shown briefly in
                                        > the sixth seal and
                                        > more fully in 15-19. To support this point, I encourage
                                        > people to examine the
                                        > verbal and thematic parallels existing between the fifth and
                                        > sixth seals on the
                                        > one hand and Rev 15-19 on the other. I could outline them
                                        > here, but that would
                                        > take up many more screens. Keeping all of this in mind about
                                        > the delay, when
                                        > one looks at Rev 10:6-7, it would appear to identify when God
                                        > will render the
                                        > called for justice. That justice will come in conjunction
                                        > with the seventh
                                        > trumpet. And that justice involves an earthquake (6:12 and 16:18).
                                        >
                                        > Back to Rev 11:13 now. The following two verses (14-15) have
                                        > the ending of the
                                        > second woe and the coming of the seventh trumpet (the third
                                        > woe?). This
                                        > suggests that Rev 11:13 refers to an earthquake prior to the
                                        > seventh trumpet,
                                        > prior to the rendering of justice and the earthquake of 6:12
                                        > and 16:18, and
                                        > therefore an earthquake different from that of 6:12 and 16:18.
                                        >
                                        > This suggestion becomes even stronger for me when taking into
                                        > consideration the
                                        > other reasons I mentioned (partiality of the earthquake in
                                        > 11:13, no mention of
                                        > God’s wrath in 11:13, and a contrasting response among those
                                        > living through the
                                        > experience of 11:13).



                                        >
                                        > Ian R. Brown
                                        > Ph.D. student
                                        > Andrews University
                                        >
                                        > Quoting "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg.adamsen@...>:
                                        >
                                        > > Ian,
                                        > >
                                        > > As regards your first reason I and many others have also
                                        > noticed this
                                        > > development from a partial judgment in ch. 6ff to the
                                        > complete judgment
                                        > > in 15f. However, I think there are reasons which support that the
                                        > > partial judgment is nevertheless the judgment of the Day of Judgment
                                        > > and
                                        > > the parousia. The theophanic earthquake is one of these.
                                        > >
                                        > > As regards your second reason, Rev 10:6 explicitly says that "there
                                        > > will
                                        > > no further delay", which means that the end has arrived.
                                        > >
                                        > > Georg S. Adamsen
                                        > >
                                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > > From: IAN BROWN [mailto:irbrown@...]
                                        > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:10 PM
                                        > > > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > Subject: RE: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Georg,
                                        > > > I find it difficult to identify the earthquake in 11:13 with
                                        > > > those in 6:12
                                        > > > and 16:18.
                                        > > > First, the whole city is affected in 16 and all the cities of
                                        > > > the nations
                                        > > > fall, while only a portion of the city is affected in 11:13.
                                        > > > Second, 10:6-7 and 11:14 suggest that the end has not arrived
                                        > > > yet in 11:13.
                                        > > > Third, those who suffer the seven plagues, yet do not seem to
                                        > > > be explicitly
                                        > > > killed, blaspheme God and do not give him glory. This
                                        > > > contrasts with a
                                        > > > group who escape death and do give God glory.
                                        > > > Fourth, there is no mention of God's wrath, which is
                                        > > > characteristic of the
                                        > > > contexts of 6:12 and 16:18.
                                        > > > The first and the second reasons hold the most weight for me.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Ian R. Brown
                                        > > > Ph.D. student
                                        > > > Andrews University
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                                        > >
                                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
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                                        > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                      • Ken Flowers
                                        ... refers to ... I ve been wondering if this is the right question for this verse. For me the thing to note is that there seems to be at least an opportunity
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Nov 5, 2001
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In revelation-list@y..., "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg.adamsen@1...>
                                          wrote:
                                          > I remain unconvinced that Rev 14:7 and 15:4 supports that 11:13
                                          refers to
                                          > conversion.
                                          > ...

                                          I've been wondering if this is the right question for this verse.
                                          For
                                          me the thing to note is that there seems to be at least an
                                          opportunity
                                          for conversion. In fact, I find this to be a (perhaps the) recurring
                                          theme throughout the book.

                                          Take:
                                          9:20, 21 - "yet repented not of the works of their hands."
                                          16:9 - "and they repented not to give him glory."
                                          16:11 - "and repented not of their deeds."

                                          These verses all imply an opportunity for conversion. I also see the
                                          numerous warnings as such opportunities. Even the prolonged, and
                                          partial nature of the judgments should imply opportunities and
                                          warnings rather than God using the world as a big cat toy.

                                          I've written more of this up as a small appendix to a book I'm
                                          working
                                          on. I can send the longer text upon request.

                                          Ken Flowers
                                          Lexington MA
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