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The hidden manna and the white stone (Rev 2)

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  • Greg Clarke
    Dear Rev-listers I am currently exploring the connections between the promises to he who overcomes in Rev 2-3, and the events to which they might correspond
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 15, 2001
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      The hidden manna and the white stone (Rev 2) Dear Rev-listers

      I am currently exploring the connections between the promises to "he who overcomes" in Rev 2-3, and the events to which they might correspond in Rev 19-22. I am arguing for a strong correspondence, one which helps to connect the 2 visions (1-3, 4-22). However, my bugbear is 2:17. I am exploring how the hidden manna and the white stone might be involved in the final throne scene and the rider on the White Horse scene, but I would appreciate ideas from the List.

      € what views do people have on the sources for the hidden manna and white stone metaphors/symbols?
      € does anyone have a view on how or whether the promise of 2:17 might be fulfilled in the narrative?

      Thank you very much

      Greg Clarke



      .............................................................
      Dr G.J.Clarke
      Editor | Matthias Media
      Contact:  office (61 2) 9663 1478
                fax: (61 2) 9663 3265
                email: gclarke@...
                  mail to: PO Box 225 | Kingsford | NSW | Australia | 2032
    • Rev. Dr. John M. Sweigart
      The hidden manna and the white stone (Rev 2)Dear Greg: Great idea! This corresponds of course with the possible chiasitic structure of the book. Two
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 16, 2001
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        The hidden manna and the white stone (Rev 2)
        Dear Greg:
        Great idea! This corresponds of course with the possible chiasitic structure of the book.  Two suggestions may help you.  Perhaps the hidden manna is another name for the fruit of the tree of life.  Secondly, since one of the cultural contexts for the books seems to me to be polemical thrusts at the mystery religions ie the deep things of Satan, we should consider that the white stone is an amulet or a turban jewel similar to what the high priest of Israel used to wear.  Interestingly, although I am not a Freemason, the officers of a lodge wear particular jewels as a sign of office.  Oh one more thing, I think the Jerusalem Bible has an interesting footnote on the hidden manna, linking it to the activities of Jeremiah hiding the ark of the covenant before the fall of the temple.  You might want to check that out. 
         
        John Sweigart
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 12:54 AM
        Subject: [revelation-list] The hidden manna and the white stone (Rev 2)

        Dear Rev-listers

        I am currently exploring the connections between the promises to "he who overcomes" in Rev 2-3, and the events to which they might correspond in Rev 19-22. I am arguing for a strong correspondence, one which helps to connect the 2 visions (1-3, 4-22). However, my bugbear is 2:17. I am exploring how the hidden manna and the white stone might be involved in the final throne scene and the rider on the White Horse scene, but I would appreciate ideas from the List.

        € what views do people have on the sources for the hidden manna and white stone metaphors/symbols?
        € does anyone have a view on how or whether the promise of 2:17 might be fulfilled in the narrative?

        Thank you very much

        Greg Clarke



        .............................................................
        Dr G.J.Clarke
        Editor | Matthias Media
        Contact:  office (61 2) 9663 1478
                  fax: (61 2) 9663 3265
                  email: gclarke@...
                    mail to: PO Box 225 | Kingsford | NSW | Australia | 2032

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      • Ken Flowers
        Lund suggests (and I concur) that the letters chiastically correspond with a second set of seven angels: The First Angel (17:1-18) The Second Angel (18:1-20)
        Message 3 of 5 , Dec 17, 2001
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          Lund suggests (and I concur) that the letters chiastically correspond with
          a second set of seven angels:

          The First Angel (17:1-18)
          The Second Angel (18:1-20)
          The Third Angel (18:21-24)
          A Heavenly Scene (19:1-10)
          The Fourth Angel's Place: Jesus (19:11-16)
          The Fifth Angel (19:17-21)
          The Sixth Angel (20:1-15)
          A Heavenly Scene (21:1-8)
          The Seventh Angel (21:9-22:5)

          Don't expect Revelation's chiasm and parallels to be obviously
          regular. The author frequently jumps among many structural forms. At the
          highest level he uses a 3-1-3 setup that puts Jesus in the center of the
          action as follows:

          Three letters <----> Three angels
          One Letter (Jesus in Intro and Promise, Rod of Iron) <--
          --> Jesus in Angel's Place (Rod of Iron)
          Three letters <----> Three angels

          Other parallels from the seven letters are scattered among the seven
          angels. I would not be surprised to find a regular pattern, but I haven't
          seen it yet.

          I haven't pushed much harder than that on lower level parallels (yet), but
          the conceptual similarities in the two sections abound. For instance,
          stones and food feature prominently in the first three angels. Also look
          at 19:12 for the name "that no man knew, but he himself."

          Ken Flowers
          Lexington, MA
        • Georg S. Adamsen
          Greetings! You may want to check out: Wong, Daniel K. K. The Hidden Manna and the White Stone in Revelation 2:17. BSac 155, no. 619 (1998): 346-54. as well
          Message 4 of 5 , Dec 18, 2001
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            Greetings!


            You may want to check out:

            Wong, Daniel K. K. "The Hidden Manna and the White Stone in Revelation
            2:17." BSac 155, no. 619 (1998): 346-54.

            as well as

            Wilson, Mark Wayne. "A Pie in a Very Bleak Sky? Analysis and
            Appropriation of the Promise Sayings in the Seven Letters to the
            Churches in Revelation 2--3." Doctor of Literature and
            Philosophy-dissertation, University of South Africa, 1996.

            Wilson's thesis is a very comprehensive survey and analysis of both
            intratextual and historical connections. You will no doubt find it
            useful. I don't think it has been published (yet), but perhaps he will
            send you an electronic copy? I think he may even be on this list. If
            not, perhaps you can find him via Regent College or University in
            Vancouver. I know that he was teaching there some time ago. If any of
            you list members know where he is currently teaching, please, let us
            know.

            I may have some thoughts on the issue of the hidden manna and the white
            stone, but, unfortunately, I am too busy right now.

            Georg S. Adamsen
            Ass. Prof. of NT, LSTA

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Greg Clarke [mailto:gregjclarke@...]
            Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2001 7:55 AM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [revelation-list] The hidden manna and the white stone (Rev 2)
          • Paul Anderson
            ... Thanks, Greg and Georg. A related excursion might explore the works of Peder Borgen and myself on the homiletical developments of manna rhetoric in Philo,
            Message 5 of 5 , Dec 18, 2001
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              revelation-list@yahoogroups.com writes:
              >I may have some thoughts on the issue of the hidden manna and the white
              >stone, but, unfortunately, I am too busy right now.
              >
              >Georg S. Adamsen
              >Ass. Prof. of NT, LSTA

              revelation-list@yahoogroups.com writes:
              >what views do people have on the sources for the hidden manna and white
              >stone metaphors/symbols?
              >Ćdoes anyone have a view on how or whether the promise of 2:17 might be
              >fulfilled in the narrative?
              >
              >Thank you very much
              >
              >Greg Clarke

              Thanks, Greg and Georg. A related excursion might explore the works of
              Peder Borgen and myself on the homiletical developments of manna rhetoric
              in Philo, the midrashim, and the Gospel of John. Borgen's main source is
              his monograph, _Bread from Heaven_ (Brill), and mine is _The Christology
              of the Fourth Gospel; Its Unity and Disunity in the Light of John 6_
              (Mohr/Siebeck, TPI).

              A related essay of mine ("The Sitz im Leben of the Johannine Bread of Life
              Discourse and its Evolving Context" in _Critical Readings of John 6_, ed.
              by Alan Culpepper, E. J. Brill, 1997, pp.1-59) considers four ways in
              which death-producing food (typified by the miscomprehensions of Jesus'
              discussants) is contrasted to the life-producing food which Jesus gives
              and is. Coincitendally, these four types of inauthentic food (note
              parallels between John 6:27 and the way of death / way of life of the
              Didache) match a scenario of Johannine Christianity's history involving
              four crises also implied in the Johannine Apocalypse (in addition to the
              Roman crisis in the background, not these four sequential-but-overlapping
              crises: Synoptic-type thaumaturgy versus revelational semeiology, the
              "bread" of the Torah versus the eschatologically present workings of God,
              the "nourishment" of Jesus' obedience and the way of the cross versus
              docetizing assimilation with Rome, and attentiveness to Jesus who holds
              the keys to life and death versus structuralistic approaches to church
              order -- see Tables 20 and 21 in my book).

              The Revelation reference to hidden manna relates, I believe, to the
              nourishment that sustains one existentially despite outward hardship
              endured because of one's faithfulness to the way of God as one understood
              it. The hiddenness relates to the paradoxcial character of suffering
              endured for one's faithulness in the light of Roman pressures toward
              imperial assimilation. I'll let someone else comment on the white stone.

              Paul N. Anderson
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