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Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself

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  • merritt spencer
    I agree that Jesus resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age. I do not agree that we are
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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      I agree that Jesus' resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age.  I do not agree that we are talking about a resurrection to physical existence for all of us.  I believe the resurrection that matters is the one where we are raised to walk in newness of life, while we are still physical and facing physical death.  This life we are raised to walk in is eternal and spiritual.  This I believe is what John was referring to when he said we have already passed over from death to life.

      "David L. Barr" wrote:

      At 09:09 AM 11/7/01 -0600, you wrote:
      How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
      physical death before He died physically?
      I have understood the expression to refer to the early Christian conviction that Jesus' resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age.  That is, it is an eschatological assertion not an historical claim.

      David

      David L. Barr
      Professor of Religion
      Wright State University
      Dayton OH 45435

      http//www.wright.edu/~david.barr

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    • Loren Johns
      Firstborn functioned somewhat like pre-existence in early Judaism. Various things, such as wisdom, the Law, etc., were created before the world was created.
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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        "Firstborn" functioned somewhat like pre-existence in early Judaism.
        Various things, such as wisdom, the Law, etc., were created before the
        world was created. This served to underscore the cosmological or
        theological importance of whatever preexisted creation. It should not be
        read as a historical claim.

        Loren Johns



        -----Original Message-----
        From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:10 AM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself


        How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others
        from physical death before He died physically?


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      • merritt spencer
        I would suggest it is both.
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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          I would suggest it is both.

          Edgar Krentz wrote:

          > At 9:09 AM -0600 11/7/01, merritt spencer wrote:
          > >How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
          > >physical death before He died physically?
          >
          > Because "first born" is not a statement of chronology, but of
          > position. Read the commentaries on Col 1:15 for the evidence, and
          > BDAG, s.v.
          >
          > --
          > ****************************************************************
          > Edgar Krentz
          > Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
          > Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
          > 1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
          > Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
          > e-mail: ekrentz@...
          > home e-mail: ekrentz@...
          > ------------------------------------------------------------
          > GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
          > "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
          > ***************************************************************
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          >
          >
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        • merritt spencer
          I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from death is a reference
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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            I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus
            personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from
            death is a reference to His resurrection after being spiritually as well as
            physically deceased and when He came back from spiritual death He provided a
            way for me and you to also come back from the spiritual grave, the one in
            which we are baptised unto death and the one from which we are raised to walk
            in newness of life.

            Loren Johns wrote:

            > "Firstborn" functioned somewhat like pre-existence in early Judaism.
            > Various things, such as wisdom, the Law, etc., were created before the
            > world was created. This served to underscore the cosmological or
            > theological importance of whatever preexisted creation. It should not be
            > read as a historical claim.
            >
            > Loren Johns
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:10 AM
            > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself
            >
            > How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others
            > from physical death before He died physically?
            >
            > _________________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • Loren Johns
            I would say that your method of doing theology is not sufficiently informed by historical work, which does not entirely control, but should inform and provide
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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              I would say that your method of doing theology is not sufficiently
              informed by historical work, which does not entirely control, but should
              inform and provide some limits of plausibility on the doing of theology.
              Certainly the Jewish writers who developed or at least used the category
              of preexistence theologically were not thinking of Jesus.

              Loren Johns

              -----Original Message-----
              From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:38 AM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself


              I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus
              personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from
              death is a reference to His resurrection after being spiritually as well
              as physically deceased and when He came back from spiritual death He
              provided a way for me and you to also come back from the spiritual
              grave, the one in which we are baptised unto death and the one from
              which we are raised to walk in newness of life.


              _________________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
            • Georg S. Adamsen
              Dear list members It is not always easy to determine whether prospect subscribers have the appropriate qualifications. I think I made a mistake some time ago,
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                Dear list members

                It is not always easy to determine whether prospect subscribers have the
                appropriate qualifications. I think I made a mistake some time ago, and
                a friendly warning off the list did not have the intended effect. Thus,
                I have just unsubscribed one of the members.

                Perhaps we should end this discussion then?

                I apologise for any inconvenience.

                Georg S. Adamsen
                Listowner
              • Edgar Krentz
                ... Because first born is not a statement of chronology, but of position. Read the commentaries on Col 1:15 for the evidence, and BDAG, s.v. --
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                  At 9:09 AM -0600 11/7/01, merritt spencer wrote:
                  >How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
                  >physical death before He died physically?

                  Because "first born" is not a statement of chronology, but of
                  position. Read the commentaries on Col 1:15 for the evidence, and
                  BDAG, s.v.


                  --
                  ****************************************************************
                  Edgar Krentz
                  Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                  Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                  1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                  Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                  e-mail: ekrentz@...
                  home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                  ------------------------------------------------------------
                  GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                  "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                  ***************************************************************
                • Edgar Krentz
                  ... Where does not NT ever say that Jesus died spiritually? This is a quite modern, non-NT description. --
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                    At 10:38 AM -0600 11/7/01, merritt spencer wrote:
                    >I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus
                    >personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from
                    >death is a reference to His resurrection after being spiritually as well as
                    >physically deceased and when He came back from spiritual death He provided a
                    >way for me and you to also come back from the spiritual grave, the one in
                    >which we are baptised unto death and the one from which we are raised to walk
                    >in newness of life.

                    Where does not NT ever say that Jesus died spiritually? This is a
                    quite modern, non-NT description.



                    --
                    ****************************************************************
                    Edgar Krentz
                    Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                    Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                    1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                    Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                    e-mail: ekrentz@...
                    home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                    ------------------------------------------------------------
                    GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                    "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                    ***************************************************************
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