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RE: [revelation-list] Introducing myself

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  • Loren Johns
    I think this spiritualization of Revelation is suspect and the reasoning offered here escapes me. Jesus is the firstborn from the spiritually dead? He died a
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 6, 2001
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      I think this spiritualization of Revelation is suspect and the reasoning
      offered here escapes me. Jesus is the firstborn from the spiritually
      dead? He died a spiritual death because WE left the source of life?

      The original hearers of this book were believers who were negotiating
      their way through the various cultural/religious demands of their day.
      At least two of their number had already been killed for their faithful
      witness and are mentioned by name in the book. One of these was named
      Antipas, the other was Jesus. Throughout this book, Jesus' death is
      treated as a murder, not a sacrifice (at least if it be understood as
      vicarious). And Jesus' faithful witness, which led to his death, is
      treated as a model for the faithful witness of the believers living in
      Asia, which faithful witness the author fully expects to lead to their
      death too.

      So yes, spiritual life and spiritual death may be more important than
      physical life and physical death in this book, but Jesus as firstborn
      from the dead is a quite concrete source of hope for real
      flesh-and-blood believers who were trying to figure out if their
      allegiance to God allowed some spiritual compromises. Let us not
      undervalue the difficult life choices these believers faced simply
      because they are not ones WE face.

      Loren Johns



      -----Original Message-----
      From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:57 PM
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself


      Ken I received your book and have begun to read it. I decided not to
      wait until I finished to begin to comment. I agree with so much and
      will not go into that now but will only touch on the first thing that I
      came across that I question. Revelation 1:5 talks about Jesus being the
      first born from the dead. You do not mention that Jesus was not the
      first born from physcial death, so we must conclude it is from spiritual
      death that He is first born. In you glossary under first death you say
      it is the death of the earthly body. I thought that at first also, but
      when I thought about Jesus being the first born from the death and it
      must be spiritual death that He is the first born from, I came to the
      conclusion that the first death is not the physcial death but the
      spiritual death that results from our having left the source of life,
      God though sin. It is from the first death, that is the spiritual
      death, that we are raised to walk in newness of life. I believe that
      from God's point of view physcial death is of minor importantance and
      spiritual death is of major importantance and from the view presented in
      Revelation, much of the death being referred to both second and first is
      spiritual, not physical because these are the deaths that matter.


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    • merritt spencer
      How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from physical death before He died physically?
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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        How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
        physical death before He died physically?

        Loren Johns wrote:

        > I think this spiritualization of Revelation is suspect and the reasoning
        > offered here escapes me. Jesus is the firstborn from the spiritually
        > dead? He died a spiritual death because WE left the source of life?
        >
        > The original hearers of this book were believers who were negotiating
        > their way through the various cultural/religious demands of their day.
        > At least two of their number had already been killed for their faithful
        > witness and are mentioned by name in the book. One of these was named
        > Antipas, the other was Jesus. Throughout this book, Jesus' death is
        > treated as a murder, not a sacrifice (at least if it be understood as
        > vicarious). And Jesus' faithful witness, which led to his death, is
        > treated as a model for the faithful witness of the believers living in
        > Asia, which faithful witness the author fully expects to lead to their
        > death too.
        >
        > So yes, spiritual life and spiritual death may be more important than
        > physical life and physical death in this book, but Jesus as firstborn
        > from the dead is a quite concrete source of hope for real
        > flesh-and-blood believers who were trying to figure out if their
        > allegiance to God allowed some spiritual compromises. Let us not
        > undervalue the difficult life choices these believers faced simply
        > because they are not ones WE face.
        >
        > Loren Johns
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:57 PM
        > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself
        >
        > Ken I received your book and have begun to read it. I decided not to
        > wait until I finished to begin to comment. I agree with so much and
        > will not go into that now but will only touch on the first thing that I
        > came across that I question. Revelation 1:5 talks about Jesus being the
        > first born from the dead. You do not mention that Jesus was not the
        > first born from physcial death, so we must conclude it is from spiritual
        > death that He is first born. In you glossary under first death you say
        > it is the death of the earthly body. I thought that at first also, but
        > when I thought about Jesus being the first born from the death and it
        > must be spiritual death that He is the first born from, I came to the
        > conclusion that the first death is not the physcial death but the
        > spiritual death that results from our having left the source of life,
        > God though sin. It is from the first death, that is the spiritual
        > death, that we are raised to walk in newness of life. I believe that
        > from God's point of view physcial death is of minor importantance and
        > spiritual death is of major importantance and from the view presented in
        > Revelation, much of the death being referred to both second and first is
        > spiritual, not physical because these are the deaths that matter.
        >
        > _________________________________________________________
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        >
        >
        >
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      • David L. Barr
        At 09:09 AM 11/7/01 -0600, you wrote: How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from physical death before He died physically? I
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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          At 09:09 AM 11/7/01 -0600, you wrote:
          How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
          physical death before He died physically?
          I have understood the expression to refer to the early Christian conviction that Jesus' resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age.  That is, it is an eschatological assertion not an historical claim.

          David

          David L. Barr
          Professor of Religion
          Wright State University
          Dayton OH 45435

          http//www.wright.edu/~david.barr

        • merritt spencer
          I agree that Jesus resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age. I do not agree that we are
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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            I agree that Jesus' resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age.  I do not agree that we are talking about a resurrection to physical existence for all of us.  I believe the resurrection that matters is the one where we are raised to walk in newness of life, while we are still physical and facing physical death.  This life we are raised to walk in is eternal and spiritual.  This I believe is what John was referring to when he said we have already passed over from death to life.

            "David L. Barr" wrote:

            At 09:09 AM 11/7/01 -0600, you wrote:
            How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
            physical death before He died physically?
            I have understood the expression to refer to the early Christian conviction that Jesus' resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age.  That is, it is an eschatological assertion not an historical claim.

            David

            David L. Barr
            Professor of Religion
            Wright State University
            Dayton OH 45435

            http//www.wright.edu/~david.barr

            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
             
             

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          • Loren Johns
            Firstborn functioned somewhat like pre-existence in early Judaism. Various things, such as wisdom, the Law, etc., were created before the world was created.
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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              "Firstborn" functioned somewhat like pre-existence in early Judaism.
              Various things, such as wisdom, the Law, etc., were created before the
              world was created. This served to underscore the cosmological or
              theological importance of whatever preexisted creation. It should not be
              read as a historical claim.

              Loren Johns



              -----Original Message-----
              From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
              Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:10 AM
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself


              How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others
              from physical death before He died physically?


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            • merritt spencer
              I would suggest it is both.
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                I would suggest it is both.

                Edgar Krentz wrote:

                > At 9:09 AM -0600 11/7/01, merritt spencer wrote:
                > >How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
                > >physical death before He died physically?
                >
                > Because "first born" is not a statement of chronology, but of
                > position. Read the commentaries on Col 1:15 for the evidence, and
                > BDAG, s.v.
                >
                > --
                > ****************************************************************
                > Edgar Krentz
                > Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                > Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                > 1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                > Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                > e-mail: ekrentz@...
                > home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                > ------------------------------------------------------------
                > GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                > "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                > ***************************************************************
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              • merritt spencer
                I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from death is a reference
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                  I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus
                  personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from
                  death is a reference to His resurrection after being spiritually as well as
                  physically deceased and when He came back from spiritual death He provided a
                  way for me and you to also come back from the spiritual grave, the one in
                  which we are baptised unto death and the one from which we are raised to walk
                  in newness of life.

                  Loren Johns wrote:

                  > "Firstborn" functioned somewhat like pre-existence in early Judaism.
                  > Various things, such as wisdom, the Law, etc., were created before the
                  > world was created. This served to underscore the cosmological or
                  > theological importance of whatever preexisted creation. It should not be
                  > read as a historical claim.
                  >
                  > Loren Johns
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
                  > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:10 AM
                  > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself
                  >
                  > How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others
                  > from physical death before He died physically?
                  >
                  > _________________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • Loren Johns
                  I would say that your method of doing theology is not sufficiently informed by historical work, which does not entirely control, but should inform and provide
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                    I would say that your method of doing theology is not sufficiently
                    informed by historical work, which does not entirely control, but should
                    inform and provide some limits of plausibility on the doing of theology.
                    Certainly the Jewish writers who developed or at least used the category
                    of preexistence theologically were not thinking of Jesus.

                    Loren Johns

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:38 AM
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself


                    I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus
                    personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from
                    death is a reference to His resurrection after being spiritually as well
                    as physically deceased and when He came back from spiritual death He
                    provided a way for me and you to also come back from the spiritual
                    grave, the one in which we are baptised unto death and the one from
                    which we are raised to walk in newness of life.


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                    Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
                  • Georg S. Adamsen
                    Dear list members It is not always easy to determine whether prospect subscribers have the appropriate qualifications. I think I made a mistake some time ago,
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                      Dear list members

                      It is not always easy to determine whether prospect subscribers have the
                      appropriate qualifications. I think I made a mistake some time ago, and
                      a friendly warning off the list did not have the intended effect. Thus,
                      I have just unsubscribed one of the members.

                      Perhaps we should end this discussion then?

                      I apologise for any inconvenience.

                      Georg S. Adamsen
                      Listowner
                    • Edgar Krentz
                      ... Because first born is not a statement of chronology, but of position. Read the commentaries on Col 1:15 for the evidence, and BDAG, s.v. --
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                        At 9:09 AM -0600 11/7/01, merritt spencer wrote:
                        >How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
                        >physical death before He died physically?

                        Because "first born" is not a statement of chronology, but of
                        position. Read the commentaries on Col 1:15 for the evidence, and
                        BDAG, s.v.


                        --
                        ****************************************************************
                        Edgar Krentz
                        Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                        Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                        1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                        Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                        e-mail: ekrentz@...
                        home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                        ------------------------------------------------------------
                        GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                        "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                        ***************************************************************
                      • Edgar Krentz
                        ... Where does not NT ever say that Jesus died spiritually? This is a quite modern, non-NT description. --
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                          At 10:38 AM -0600 11/7/01, merritt spencer wrote:
                          >I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus
                          >personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from
                          >death is a reference to His resurrection after being spiritually as well as
                          >physically deceased and when He came back from spiritual death He provided a
                          >way for me and you to also come back from the spiritual grave, the one in
                          >which we are baptised unto death and the one from which we are raised to walk
                          >in newness of life.

                          Where does not NT ever say that Jesus died spiritually? This is a
                          quite modern, non-NT description.



                          --
                          ****************************************************************
                          Edgar Krentz
                          Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                          Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                          1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                          Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                          e-mail: ekrentz@...
                          home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                          ------------------------------------------------------------
                          GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                          "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                          ***************************************************************
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