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Introducing myself

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  • Ken Flowers
    I realized when I sent my last post that I should probably have introduced myself first. My interest in Revelation has been in finding ways to communicate its
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 5, 2001
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      I realized when I sent my last post that I should probably have introduced
      myself first.

      My interest in Revelation has been in finding ways to communicate its
      meaning and value to Christian audiences. I am a lay person. I have
      reached first draft status on a book and have taught Sunday school on the
      topic.

      I take the following general approaches to the material:
      - It can be understood without resorting to "fantastic literalism"
      - It was understandable to its original audience
      - It is composed of a set of scenes which are:
      * Not necessarily time ordered!
      * Presented from different viewing points (heaven/earth/etc.)
      * Presented about different venues (heaven/church/kingdoms/sinners/etc.)
      - It presents an "evocative" picture rather than a "symbolically literal"
      picture.

      I fully understand that many on the list will take exception to one or more
      of the above approaches, and I respect that.

      I have a particular interest in the chiastic and parallel structures of
      Revelation. I find they help emphasize the "evocative" sense of the book,
      clarify the disjointed time constructs, and help reconcile many of the more
      confusing constructs in the material. In fact, my book is structured on
      the many levels of chiasm and parallelism in Revelation, because I think
      they give a handle to the lay reader for understanding the poetic/evocative
      sense of the book.

      I hope I can contribute to this forum,
      Ken Flowers
      Lexington, MA
    • merritt spencer
      I am Merritt Spencer and have not posted yet. I also am a lay person who has written an unpublished book on Revelation. Ken I would appreciate your emailing
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 5, 2001
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        I am Merritt Spencer and have not posted yet. I also am a lay person who has
        written an unpublished book on Revelation. Ken I would appreciate your emailing
        a copy to me and I am willing to email a copy of mine to whoever wants it. I
        approach Revelation assuming the spiritual is more important than the physical
        and that the book is about revealing Jesus and is therefore spiritual in its
        message. I agree that it was understandable to the audience it was originally
        written to and I also agree it is not on a time line or about predicting the
        physcial future.

        Ken Flowers wrote:

        > I realized when I sent my last post that I should probably have introduced
        > myself first.
        >
        > My interest in Revelation has been in finding ways to communicate its
        > meaning and value to Christian audiences. I am a lay person. I have
        > reached first draft status on a book and have taught Sunday school on the
        > topic.
        >
        > I take the following general approaches to the material:
        > - It can be understood without resorting to "fantastic literalism"
        > - It was understandable to its original audience
        > - It is composed of a set of scenes which are:
        > * Not necessarily time ordered!
        > * Presented from different viewing points (heaven/earth/etc.)
        > * Presented about different venues (heaven/church/kingdoms/sinners/etc.)
        > - It presents an "evocative" picture rather than a "symbolically literal"
        > picture.
        >
        > I fully understand that many on the list will take exception to one or more
        > of the above approaches, and I respect that.
        >
        > I have a particular interest in the chiastic and parallel structures of
        > Revelation. I find they help emphasize the "evocative" sense of the book,
        > clarify the disjointed time constructs, and help reconcile many of the more
        > confusing constructs in the material. In fact, my book is structured on
        > the many levels of chiasm and parallelism in Revelation, because I think
        > they give a handle to the lay reader for understanding the poetic/evocative
        > sense of the book.
        >
        > I hope I can contribute to this forum,
        > Ken Flowers
        > Lexington, MA
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • merritt spencer
        Ken I received your book and have begun to read it. I decided not to wait until I finished to begin to comment. I agree with so much and will not go into
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 6, 2001
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          Ken I received your book and have begun to read it. I decided not to wait until
          I finished to begin to comment. I agree with so much and will not go into that
          now but will only touch on the first thing that I came across that I question.
          Revelation 1:5 talks about Jesus being the first born from the dead. You do not
          mention that Jesus was not the first born from physcial death, so we must
          conclude it is from spiritual death that He is first born. In you glossary under
          first death you say it is the death of the earthly body. I thought that at first
          also, but when I thought about Jesus being the first born from the death and it
          must be spiritual death that He is the first born from, I came to the conclusion
          that the first death is not the physcial death but the spiritual death that
          results from our having left the source of life, God though sin. It is from the
          first death, that is the spiritual death, that we are raised to walk in newness
          of life. I believe that from God's point of view physcial death is of minor
          importantance and spiritual death is of major importantance and from the view
          presented in Revelation, much of the death being referred to both second and
          first is spiritual, not physical because these are the deaths that matter.

          Ken Flowers wrote:

          > I realized when I sent my last post that I should probably have introduced
          > myself first.
          >
          > My interest in Revelation has been in finding ways to communicate its
          > meaning and value to Christian audiences. I am a lay person. I have
          > reached first draft status on a book and have taught Sunday school on the
          > topic.
          >
          > I take the following general approaches to the material:
          > - It can be understood without resorting to "fantastic literalism"
          > - It was understandable to its original audience
          > - It is composed of a set of scenes which are:
          > * Not necessarily time ordered!
          > * Presented from different viewing points (heaven/earth/etc.)
          > * Presented about different venues (heaven/church/kingdoms/sinners/etc.)
          > - It presents an "evocative" picture rather than a "symbolically literal"
          > picture.
          >
          > I fully understand that many on the list will take exception to one or more
          > of the above approaches, and I respect that.
          >
          > I have a particular interest in the chiastic and parallel structures of
          > Revelation. I find they help emphasize the "evocative" sense of the book,
          > clarify the disjointed time constructs, and help reconcile many of the more
          > confusing constructs in the material. In fact, my book is structured on
          > the many levels of chiasm and parallelism in Revelation, because I think
          > they give a handle to the lay reader for understanding the poetic/evocative
          > sense of the book.
          >
          > I hope I can contribute to this forum,
          > Ken Flowers
          > Lexington, MA
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        • Loren Johns
          I think this spiritualization of Revelation is suspect and the reasoning offered here escapes me. Jesus is the firstborn from the spiritually dead? He died a
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 6, 2001
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            I think this spiritualization of Revelation is suspect and the reasoning
            offered here escapes me. Jesus is the firstborn from the spiritually
            dead? He died a spiritual death because WE left the source of life?

            The original hearers of this book were believers who were negotiating
            their way through the various cultural/religious demands of their day.
            At least two of their number had already been killed for their faithful
            witness and are mentioned by name in the book. One of these was named
            Antipas, the other was Jesus. Throughout this book, Jesus' death is
            treated as a murder, not a sacrifice (at least if it be understood as
            vicarious). And Jesus' faithful witness, which led to his death, is
            treated as a model for the faithful witness of the believers living in
            Asia, which faithful witness the author fully expects to lead to their
            death too.

            So yes, spiritual life and spiritual death may be more important than
            physical life and physical death in this book, but Jesus as firstborn
            from the dead is a quite concrete source of hope for real
            flesh-and-blood believers who were trying to figure out if their
            allegiance to God allowed some spiritual compromises. Let us not
            undervalue the difficult life choices these believers faced simply
            because they are not ones WE face.

            Loren Johns



            -----Original Message-----
            From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:57 PM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself


            Ken I received your book and have begun to read it. I decided not to
            wait until I finished to begin to comment. I agree with so much and
            will not go into that now but will only touch on the first thing that I
            came across that I question. Revelation 1:5 talks about Jesus being the
            first born from the dead. You do not mention that Jesus was not the
            first born from physcial death, so we must conclude it is from spiritual
            death that He is first born. In you glossary under first death you say
            it is the death of the earthly body. I thought that at first also, but
            when I thought about Jesus being the first born from the death and it
            must be spiritual death that He is the first born from, I came to the
            conclusion that the first death is not the physcial death but the
            spiritual death that results from our having left the source of life,
            God though sin. It is from the first death, that is the spiritual
            death, that we are raised to walk in newness of life. I believe that
            from God's point of view physcial death is of minor importantance and
            spiritual death is of major importantance and from the view presented in
            Revelation, much of the death being referred to both second and first is
            spiritual, not physical because these are the deaths that matter.


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          • merritt spencer
            How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from physical death before He died physically?
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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              How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
              physical death before He died physically?

              Loren Johns wrote:

              > I think this spiritualization of Revelation is suspect and the reasoning
              > offered here escapes me. Jesus is the firstborn from the spiritually
              > dead? He died a spiritual death because WE left the source of life?
              >
              > The original hearers of this book were believers who were negotiating
              > their way through the various cultural/religious demands of their day.
              > At least two of their number had already been killed for their faithful
              > witness and are mentioned by name in the book. One of these was named
              > Antipas, the other was Jesus. Throughout this book, Jesus' death is
              > treated as a murder, not a sacrifice (at least if it be understood as
              > vicarious). And Jesus' faithful witness, which led to his death, is
              > treated as a model for the faithful witness of the believers living in
              > Asia, which faithful witness the author fully expects to lead to their
              > death too.
              >
              > So yes, spiritual life and spiritual death may be more important than
              > physical life and physical death in this book, but Jesus as firstborn
              > from the dead is a quite concrete source of hope for real
              > flesh-and-blood believers who were trying to figure out if their
              > allegiance to God allowed some spiritual compromises. Let us not
              > undervalue the difficult life choices these believers faced simply
              > because they are not ones WE face.
              >
              > Loren Johns
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
              > Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 8:57 PM
              > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself
              >
              > Ken I received your book and have begun to read it. I decided not to
              > wait until I finished to begin to comment. I agree with so much and
              > will not go into that now but will only touch on the first thing that I
              > came across that I question. Revelation 1:5 talks about Jesus being the
              > first born from the dead. You do not mention that Jesus was not the
              > first born from physcial death, so we must conclude it is from spiritual
              > death that He is first born. In you glossary under first death you say
              > it is the death of the earthly body. I thought that at first also, but
              > when I thought about Jesus being the first born from the death and it
              > must be spiritual death that He is the first born from, I came to the
              > conclusion that the first death is not the physcial death but the
              > spiritual death that results from our having left the source of life,
              > God though sin. It is from the first death, that is the spiritual
              > death, that we are raised to walk in newness of life. I believe that
              > from God's point of view physcial death is of minor importantance and
              > spiritual death is of major importantance and from the view presented in
              > Revelation, much of the death being referred to both second and first is
              > spiritual, not physical because these are the deaths that matter.
              >
              > _________________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • David L. Barr
              At 09:09 AM 11/7/01 -0600, you wrote: How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from physical death before He died physically? I
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                At 09:09 AM 11/7/01 -0600, you wrote:
                How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
                physical death before He died physically?
                I have understood the expression to refer to the early Christian conviction that Jesus' resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age.  That is, it is an eschatological assertion not an historical claim.

                David

                David L. Barr
                Professor of Religion
                Wright State University
                Dayton OH 45435

                http//www.wright.edu/~david.barr

              • merritt spencer
                I agree that Jesus resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age. I do not agree that we are
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                  I agree that Jesus' resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age.  I do not agree that we are talking about a resurrection to physical existence for all of us.  I believe the resurrection that matters is the one where we are raised to walk in newness of life, while we are still physical and facing physical death.  This life we are raised to walk in is eternal and spiritual.  This I believe is what John was referring to when he said we have already passed over from death to life.

                  "David L. Barr" wrote:

                  At 09:09 AM 11/7/01 -0600, you wrote:
                  How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
                  physical death before He died physically?
                  I have understood the expression to refer to the early Christian conviction that Jesus' resurrection was the beginning of the resurrection of the just that would mark the beginning of the new age.  That is, it is an eschatological assertion not an historical claim.

                  David

                  David L. Barr
                  Professor of Religion
                  Wright State University
                  Dayton OH 45435

                  http//www.wright.edu/~david.barr

                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                   
                   

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

                • Loren Johns
                  Firstborn functioned somewhat like pre-existence in early Judaism. Various things, such as wisdom, the Law, etc., were created before the world was created.
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                    "Firstborn" functioned somewhat like pre-existence in early Judaism.
                    Various things, such as wisdom, the Law, etc., were created before the
                    world was created. This served to underscore the cosmological or
                    theological importance of whatever preexisted creation. It should not be
                    read as a historical claim.

                    Loren Johns



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:10 AM
                    To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself


                    How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others
                    from physical death before He died physically?


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                  • merritt spencer
                    I would suggest it is both.
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                      I would suggest it is both.

                      Edgar Krentz wrote:

                      > At 9:09 AM -0600 11/7/01, merritt spencer wrote:
                      > >How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
                      > >physical death before He died physically?
                      >
                      > Because "first born" is not a statement of chronology, but of
                      > position. Read the commentaries on Col 1:15 for the evidence, and
                      > BDAG, s.v.
                      >
                      > --
                      > ****************************************************************
                      > Edgar Krentz
                      > Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                      > Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                      > 1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                      > Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                      > e-mail: ekrentz@...
                      > home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------
                      > GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                      > "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                      > ***************************************************************
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • merritt spencer
                      I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from death is a reference
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                        I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus
                        personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from
                        death is a reference to His resurrection after being spiritually as well as
                        physically deceased and when He came back from spiritual death He provided a
                        way for me and you to also come back from the spiritual grave, the one in
                        which we are baptised unto death and the one from which we are raised to walk
                        in newness of life.

                        Loren Johns wrote:

                        > "Firstborn" functioned somewhat like pre-existence in early Judaism.
                        > Various things, such as wisdom, the Law, etc., were created before the
                        > world was created. This served to underscore the cosmological or
                        > theological importance of whatever preexisted creation. It should not be
                        > read as a historical claim.
                        >
                        > Loren Johns
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
                        > Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 10:10 AM
                        > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself
                        >
                        > How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others
                        > from physical death before He died physically?
                        >
                        > _________________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      • Loren Johns
                        I would say that your method of doing theology is not sufficiently informed by historical work, which does not entirely control, but should inform and provide
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                          I would say that your method of doing theology is not sufficiently
                          informed by historical work, which does not entirely control, but should
                          inform and provide some limits of plausibility on the doing of theology.
                          Certainly the Jewish writers who developed or at least used the category
                          of preexistence theologically were not thinking of Jesus.

                          Loren Johns

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: merritt spencer [mailto:mspencer@...]
                          Sent: Wednesday, November 07, 2001 11:38 AM
                          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Introducing myself


                          I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus
                          personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from
                          death is a reference to His resurrection after being spiritually as well
                          as physically deceased and when He came back from spiritual death He
                          provided a way for me and you to also come back from the spiritual
                          grave, the one in which we are baptised unto death and the one from
                          which we are raised to walk in newness of life.


                          _________________________________________________________
                          Do You Yahoo!?
                          Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com
                        • Georg S. Adamsen
                          Dear list members It is not always easy to determine whether prospect subscribers have the appropriate qualifications. I think I made a mistake some time ago,
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                            Dear list members

                            It is not always easy to determine whether prospect subscribers have the
                            appropriate qualifications. I think I made a mistake some time ago, and
                            a friendly warning off the list did not have the intended effect. Thus,
                            I have just unsubscribed one of the members.

                            Perhaps we should end this discussion then?

                            I apologise for any inconvenience.

                            Georg S. Adamsen
                            Listowner
                          • Edgar Krentz
                            ... Because first born is not a statement of chronology, but of position. Read the commentaries on Col 1:15 for the evidence, and BDAG, s.v. --
                            Message 13 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                              At 9:09 AM -0600 11/7/01, merritt spencer wrote:
                              >How is Jesus the first born from physcial death since He raised others from
                              >physical death before He died physically?

                              Because "first born" is not a statement of chronology, but of
                              position. Read the commentaries on Col 1:15 for the evidence, and
                              BDAG, s.v.


                              --
                              ****************************************************************
                              Edgar Krentz
                              Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                              Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                              1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                              Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                              e-mail: ekrentz@...
                              home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                              ------------------------------------------------------------
                              GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                              "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                              ***************************************************************
                            • Edgar Krentz
                              ... Where does not NT ever say that Jesus died spiritually? This is a quite modern, non-NT description. --
                              Message 14 of 14 , Nov 7, 2001
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                                At 10:38 AM -0600 11/7/01, merritt spencer wrote:
                                >I see the wisdom and the law,etc i.e. the word of God being Jesus
                                >personified. Yes He existed before all creation but the first born from
                                >death is a reference to His resurrection after being spiritually as well as
                                >physically deceased and when He came back from spiritual death He provided a
                                >way for me and you to also come back from the spiritual grave, the one in
                                >which we are baptised unto death and the one from which we are raised to walk
                                >in newness of life.

                                Where does not NT ever say that Jesus died spiritually? This is a
                                quite modern, non-NT description.



                                --
                                ****************************************************************
                                Edgar Krentz
                                Christ Seminary--Seminex Professor of New Testament, Emeritus
                                Lutheran School of Theology at Chicago
                                1100 East 55th Street, Chicago, IL 60615
                                Tel: 773-256-0773; home phone 773-947-8105
                                e-mail: ekrentz@...
                                home e-mail: ekrentz@...
                                ------------------------------------------------------------
                                GERASKO D' AEI POLLA DIDASKOMENOS
                                "I grow old, constantly learning many things." [Solon of Athens]
                                ***************************************************************
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