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RE: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13

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  • Georg S. Adamsen
    Hi Ian I agree that there is a contrast in the OUKETI ... ALLA construction, but not that this proves your point. First, that the delay will end only expresses
    Message 1 of 19 , Nov 4, 2001
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      Hi Ian

      I agree that there is a contrast in the OUKETI ... ALLA construction,
      but not that this proves your point. First, that the delay will end only
      expresses a terminus ad quem, not a terminus a quo. Second, the fact you
      mention yourself, namely that the fifth and sixth seal and Rev 15f and
      17-19 employ judgment language, indicates that the judgment events
      called for is rather begun already with the fifth and indeed the first
      four seals. The "end" is not a flat one action event, but a series of
      events which takes place at the Day of the Lord. The ultimate judgment,
      however, must await something (cf. the fifth seal). The important
      question for the determination of the terminus a quo is then at what
      time the fifth seal will take place. If it is possible to show that it
      is part of the events which will happen at the Day of judgment, then
      your argument is less convincing.

      I do not accept that the mention of the second and third woe (i.e. the
      sixth and seventh trumpet) indicates a significant temporal progression
      so that the sixth seal (and the first five as well) could not also take
      place at the Day of Judgment. The reason why I do not accept this is
      that at least the sixth seal refer to the day of God and His Christ's
      wrath, i.e. to the Day of Judgment. The progression at the textual level
      (the discourse level, to use e.g. Seymour Chatman's terminology) does
      thus not necessarily imply a (significant) chronological progression at
      the level of the events which the text describes (i.e. the story level).
      (There are certain similarities between this discussion and the
      well-known between so-called recapitulationists and progressionists. I
      disagree with both). If this is so, then the partiality may belong to
      either the discourse level or to the story level. You presuppose, I
      think, the latter. I would opt for the former for the reason that Rev
      6,1ff also makes use of judgment language. It is true that God's wrath
      is not explicitly mentioned in 11:13, but it is presupposed because in
      theophanic language earthquake is the result of God's appearance,
      normally or most often (I do not remember the deatails of this
      particular point right now) before his enemies. Moreover, the earthquake
      could last more than a single second, e.g. an hour, such as the hour of
      judgment.

      Finally, is not the future used sometimes about what is and will be from
      the time of speaking? This seems to me to be the case in e.g. Rev
      7:15-17.

      Georg S. Adamsen, LSTA

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: irbrown@... [mailto:irbrown@...]
      > Sent: Sunday, November 04, 2001 3:50 PM
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: RE: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13
      >
      >
      > Georg,
      > Let me say a bit more about my second reason involving Rev 10:6-7.
      >
      > Rev 10:6-7 exhibits the construction OUKETI . . . ALLA . . .
      > showing a strong
      > contrast (Cf. the uses of this construction and its
      > variations throughout the
      > NT and also see BDF 448[1]). The first clause by saying
      > “Time/delay will be no
      > longer” points to a future point at which the delay ends.
      > The second clause
      > points to what stands in place of that delay, the completed
      > mystery of God. In
      > addition, the second clause pinpoints the time at which this
      > reality occurs (in
      > the days of the sound of the seventh angel, when he is about
      > to trumpet).
      > These temporal indicators also implicitly pinpoint the time
      > at which the delay
      > ends. Given that in the panorama of the trumpets the seventh
      > has yet to sound
      > (note Rev 11:14-15), it seems evident that the delay is not
      > over when the angel
      > makes his declaration in Rev 10:6-7.
      >
      > Before returning to the relevancy of this to Rev 11:13, let
      > me comment further
      > on the delay. I feel that this delay refers back to the
      > delay/time mentioned
      > in the fifth seal. This is the delay before the rendering of
      > the justice
      > called for by the slain people of God. When one examines the
      > language of the
      > fifth seal, the sixth seal, and Rev 15-19, one finds that the
      > rendering of the
      > justice is the outpouring of God’s wrath, shown briefly in
      > the sixth seal and
      > more fully in 15-19. To support this point, I encourage
      > people to examine the
      > verbal and thematic parallels existing between the fifth and
      > sixth seals on the
      > one hand and Rev 15-19 on the other. I could outline them
      > here, but that would
      > take up many more screens. Keeping all of this in mind about
      > the delay, when
      > one looks at Rev 10:6-7, it would appear to identify when God
      > will render the
      > called for justice. That justice will come in conjunction
      > with the seventh
      > trumpet. And that justice involves an earthquake (6:12 and 16:18).
      >
      > Back to Rev 11:13 now. The following two verses (14-15) have
      > the ending of the
      > second woe and the coming of the seventh trumpet (the third
      > woe?). This
      > suggests that Rev 11:13 refers to an earthquake prior to the
      > seventh trumpet,
      > prior to the rendering of justice and the earthquake of 6:12
      > and 16:18, and
      > therefore an earthquake different from that of 6:12 and 16:18.
      >
      > This suggestion becomes even stronger for me when taking into
      > consideration the
      > other reasons I mentioned (partiality of the earthquake in
      > 11:13, no mention of
      > God’s wrath in 11:13, and a contrasting response among those
      > living through the
      > experience of 11:13).



      >
      > Ian R. Brown
      > Ph.D. student
      > Andrews University
      >
      > Quoting "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg.adamsen@...>:
      >
      > > Ian,
      > >
      > > As regards your first reason I and many others have also
      > noticed this
      > > development from a partial judgment in ch. 6ff to the
      > complete judgment
      > > in 15f. However, I think there are reasons which support that the
      > > partial judgment is nevertheless the judgment of the Day of Judgment
      > > and
      > > the parousia. The theophanic earthquake is one of these.
      > >
      > > As regards your second reason, Rev 10:6 explicitly says that "there
      > > will
      > > no further delay", which means that the end has arrived.
      > >
      > > Georg S. Adamsen
      > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: IAN BROWN [mailto:irbrown@...]
      > > > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 11:10 PM
      > > > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: RE: [revelation-list] earthquake in Rev 11:13
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Georg,
      > > > I find it difficult to identify the earthquake in 11:13 with
      > > > those in 6:12
      > > > and 16:18.
      > > > First, the whole city is affected in 16 and all the cities of
      > > > the nations
      > > > fall, while only a portion of the city is affected in 11:13.
      > > > Second, 10:6-7 and 11:14 suggest that the end has not arrived
      > > > yet in 11:13.
      > > > Third, those who suffer the seven plagues, yet do not seem to
      > > > be explicitly
      > > > killed, blaspheme God and do not give him glory. This
      > > > contrasts with a
      > > > group who escape death and do give God glory.
      > > > Fourth, there is no mention of God's wrath, which is
      > > > characteristic of the
      > > > contexts of 6:12 and 16:18.
      > > > The first and the second reasons hold the most weight for me.
      > > >
      > > > Ian R. Brown
      > > > Ph.D. student
      > > > Andrews University
      > >
      > >
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    • Ken Flowers
      ... refers to ... I ve been wondering if this is the right question for this verse. For me the thing to note is that there seems to be at least an opportunity
      Message 2 of 19 , Nov 5, 2001
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        --- In revelation-list@y..., "Georg S. Adamsen" <georg.adamsen@1...>
        wrote:
        > I remain unconvinced that Rev 14:7 and 15:4 supports that 11:13
        refers to
        > conversion.
        > ...

        I've been wondering if this is the right question for this verse.
        For
        me the thing to note is that there seems to be at least an
        opportunity
        for conversion. In fact, I find this to be a (perhaps the) recurring
        theme throughout the book.

        Take:
        9:20, 21 - "yet repented not of the works of their hands."
        16:9 - "and they repented not to give him glory."
        16:11 - "and repented not of their deeds."

        These verses all imply an opportunity for conversion. I also see the
        numerous warnings as such opportunities. Even the prolonged, and
        partial nature of the judgments should imply opportunities and
        warnings rather than God using the world as a big cat toy.

        I've written more of this up as a small appendix to a book I'm
        working
        on. I can send the longer text upon request.

        Ken Flowers
        Lexington MA
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