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Re: [revelation-list] Lamblike Beast

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  • Stettler Alliance Church
    please take me off the mailing list thank you ... into ... birth ... both ... http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
    Message 1 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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      please take me off the mailing list

      thank you

      ----------
      > From: Dave Mathewson <d_mathewson@...>
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Lamblike Beast
      > Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 12:35 PM
      >
      > Ed Garcia writes: "Systems can be judged but how do you throw a system
      into
      > the lake of fire? Individuals, however, can be thrown into the lake of
      > fire."
      >
      > But is this perhaps not too subtle of an approach to Rev's metaphorical
      > language? At a literal level, this would be a difficulty, but at a
      > metaphorical level, no more a difficulty that having a woman who gives
      birth
      > to a son representing (at least in part) a nation, or the Christ being
      both
      > a Lion and a Lamb.
      >
      > Dave Mathewson
      >
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    • Ed Garcia
      Revelation is indeed filled with metaphor and symbols and one could possibly even argue symbols of symbols. I do understand that. But don t get me wrong, I am
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
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        Revelation is indeed filled with metaphor and symbols and one could possibly
        even argue symbols of symbols. I do understand that. But don't get me wrong,
        I am not saying that the beast, false prophet, the woman giving birth or
        whoever must be understood as individuals only. There is also a corporate
        quality to these characters. I believe that characters such as the beast and
        false prophet point not only to individuals but, as I termed it above, to
        corporate entities as well. As I said systems can be punished but not thrown
        into a lake of fire, individuals can be thrown into a lake of fire. Nations,
        organizations, political movements and whatever cannot be punished in an
        after life so they are punished (plagued) here on earth, in this life. Lost
        individuals who foment, or otherwise follow whole-heartedly doomed movements
        can be punished in an after life - and will be. Thus in Revelation we have
        bowls and trumpets raining punishments down on the wicked and in the end we
        have the Beast and false Prophet, as well as Satan being thrown into the
        lake of fire.

        The idea that a leader can stand for a group is, I believe, biblical.

        I also believe that nations and groups of people cannot be punished in the
        world to come and so are punished in this world and that errant individuals
        will be punished in the life to come. I believe this too to be biblical.

        As I said above, I am not saying that the Beast and others are to be
        understood solely as individuals. I am saying that they should be understood
        as symbols of both individuals and groups. My original posting was to
        explain my disagreement with Rev. Paul who in an e-mail dated 10/30 says

        "I think I would need some other evidence from Revelation itself before
        saying that the beasts refer to persons rather than systems/empires."

        Ian's statement suggests that he does not see the Beast and other characters
        as representing individuals but only movements or corporate bodies. I
        disagree with this, I understand such symbols to symbolize both individual
        and corporate entities, this would in turn demand the existence of a
        movement of some sort as well. I hope this helps to clarify my ideas.
        Thanks.

        -Ed Garcia
        Kansas



        -----Original Message-----
        From: Dave Mathewson [mailto:d_mathewson@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:35 PM
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [revelation-list] Lamblike Beast


        Ed Garcia writes: "Systems can be judged but how do you throw a system into

        the lake of fire? Individuals, however, can be thrown into the lake of
        fire."

        But is this perhaps not too subtle of an approach to Rev's metaphorical
        language? At a literal level, this would be a difficulty, but at a
        metaphorical level, no more a difficulty that having a woman who gives birth

        to a son representing (at least in part) a nation, or the Christ being both
        a Lion and a Lamb.

        Dave Mathewson

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