Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [revelation-list] Re:Lamblike Beast

Expand Messages
  • Otto Erlend Nordgreen
    Dear Ian, in your discussion with Kym and Ed, you wrote: Revelation is making particular use of the animal images in Daniel, all of which appear to refer to
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 31, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Ian,

      in your discussion with Kym and Ed, you wrote:

      "Revelation is making particular use of the animal images in Daniel, all of
      which appear to refer to empires. Revelation does re-use images in a way
      distinct from their OT context, but I think I would need some other evidence
      from Revelation itself before saying that the beasts refer to persons rather
      than systems/empires."

      What do you make of Dan 8:9? I find it interesting to observe that after the fall of Alexander's Greece, a 'little horn' is said to grew from one of the four diadochi, viz. Syria, and that in relation to the fourth beast, Daniel also mentions a 'little horn' (Dan 7). Most commentators seem to accept that the 'little horn' of Dan 8 is the Syrian king of Antiochus IV, Epiphanes.

      The most 'natural' reading of Daniel, I would like to argue, should lead us to accept the same identity for the 'little horn' in Dan 7 and 8. Thus, following the Greek View, we should relate the fourth empire of Dan 2 and 7 to the historical person of Antiochus IV.

      It is true that the 'little horn' of Dan 8:9 is said to grew from one of the parts of the fallen Greek empire of Alexander. But we should not let this disturb the interpretation that identifies this 'little horn' with that of the fourth empire in Dan 7. Why? By recognising that Daniel actually tells us that the Greek empire already had fallen when the 'little horn' grew from one of its parts (cf. Dan 8:9,22; 11:4). Furthermore, it is quite possible that Daniel is using the 'little horn' to symbolise the fourth empire as such. Thus, like John the Seer uses one of the heads of the beast (from the sea) also to represent the beast as such, this could also be the fact of Daniel's portray of the fourth secular power.

      For my identification of the four 'kingdoms' in the Book of Daniel, see my essay "The Four Kingdoms in the Book of Daniel Reconsidered", as published at

      http://folk.uio.no/otton/Daniel1.htm

      Just some thoughts...

      Best wishes!

               ________________________________________         
               Otto Erlend Nordgreen                               
                                      
               Student at Department of Germanic
               Studies, University of Oslo, Norway
               E-mail: otton@...
               Website: http://www.uio.no/~otton/English1.htm
               ________________________________________

    • Dave Mathewson
      Ed Garcia writes: Systems can be judged but how do you throw a system into the lake of fire? Individuals, however, can be thrown into the lake of fire. But
      Message 2 of 15 , Oct 31, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Ed Garcia writes: "Systems can be judged but how do you throw a system into
        the lake of fire? Individuals, however, can be thrown into the lake of
        fire."

        But is this perhaps not too subtle of an approach to Rev's metaphorical
        language? At a literal level, this would be a difficulty, but at a
        metaphorical level, no more a difficulty that having a woman who gives birth
        to a son representing (at least in part) a nation, or the Christ being both
        a Lion and a Lamb.

        Dave Mathewson

        _________________________________________________________________
        Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
      • Stettler Alliance Church
        please take me off the mailing list thank you ... into ... birth ... both ... http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          please take me off the mailing list

          thank you

          ----------
          > From: Dave Mathewson <d_mathewson@...>
          > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [revelation-list] Lamblike Beast
          > Date: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 12:35 PM
          >
          > Ed Garcia writes: "Systems can be judged but how do you throw a system
          into
          > the lake of fire? Individuals, however, can be thrown into the lake of
          > fire."
          >
          > But is this perhaps not too subtle of an approach to Rev's metaphorical
          > language? At a literal level, this would be a difficulty, but at a
          > metaphorical level, no more a difficulty that having a woman who gives
          birth
          > to a son representing (at least in part) a nation, or the Christ being
          both
          > a Lion and a Lamb.
          >
          > Dave Mathewson
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
          http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

          >
          >
        • Ed Garcia
          Revelation is indeed filled with metaphor and symbols and one could possibly even argue symbols of symbols. I do understand that. But don t get me wrong, I am
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 1, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Revelation is indeed filled with metaphor and symbols and one could possibly
            even argue symbols of symbols. I do understand that. But don't get me wrong,
            I am not saying that the beast, false prophet, the woman giving birth or
            whoever must be understood as individuals only. There is also a corporate
            quality to these characters. I believe that characters such as the beast and
            false prophet point not only to individuals but, as I termed it above, to
            corporate entities as well. As I said systems can be punished but not thrown
            into a lake of fire, individuals can be thrown into a lake of fire. Nations,
            organizations, political movements and whatever cannot be punished in an
            after life so they are punished (plagued) here on earth, in this life. Lost
            individuals who foment, or otherwise follow whole-heartedly doomed movements
            can be punished in an after life - and will be. Thus in Revelation we have
            bowls and trumpets raining punishments down on the wicked and in the end we
            have the Beast and false Prophet, as well as Satan being thrown into the
            lake of fire.

            The idea that a leader can stand for a group is, I believe, biblical.

            I also believe that nations and groups of people cannot be punished in the
            world to come and so are punished in this world and that errant individuals
            will be punished in the life to come. I believe this too to be biblical.

            As I said above, I am not saying that the Beast and others are to be
            understood solely as individuals. I am saying that they should be understood
            as symbols of both individuals and groups. My original posting was to
            explain my disagreement with Rev. Paul who in an e-mail dated 10/30 says

            "I think I would need some other evidence from Revelation itself before
            saying that the beasts refer to persons rather than systems/empires."

            Ian's statement suggests that he does not see the Beast and other characters
            as representing individuals but only movements or corporate bodies. I
            disagree with this, I understand such symbols to symbolize both individual
            and corporate entities, this would in turn demand the existence of a
            movement of some sort as well. I hope this helps to clarify my ideas.
            Thanks.

            -Ed Garcia
            Kansas



            -----Original Message-----
            From: Dave Mathewson [mailto:d_mathewson@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:35 PM
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [revelation-list] Lamblike Beast


            Ed Garcia writes: "Systems can be judged but how do you throw a system into

            the lake of fire? Individuals, however, can be thrown into the lake of
            fire."

            But is this perhaps not too subtle of an approach to Rev's metaphorical
            language? At a literal level, this would be a difficulty, but at a
            metaphorical level, no more a difficulty that having a woman who gives birth

            to a son representing (at least in part) a nation, or the Christ being both
            a Lion and a Lamb.

            Dave Mathewson

            _________________________________________________________________
            Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



            To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            revelation-list-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.