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Rev 20:4 = 1 group or 2 groups?

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  • Dustin Smith
    Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group (the beheaded martyrs
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 1, 2013
      Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks
      understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group
      (the beheaded martyrs who refused to compromise) or to two distinct groups
      (martyrs and non-martyrs who refused to compromise).

      I am leaning in favor of the former, but I recognize that ch 20 is by no
      means unambiguous in its descriptions.

      --
      Dustin Smith


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • George F Somsel
      Given John s way of writing, I would say that there is one group.  Καὶ is frequently used to connect items which are of equal status.  In this case,
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 1, 2013
        Given "John's" way of writing, I would say that there is one group.  Καὶ is frequently used to connect items which are of equal status.  In this case, those who both judge and have suffered martyrdom.
         Καίdoes not mark a distinction of semantic continuity or discontinuity; it connects two items of equal status, constraining them to be closely related to one another. Consider the "adversative" usage in 1 Thess 2:18.

        Runge, Steven E. Discourse Grammar of the Greek New Testament: A Practical Introduction for Teaching and Exegesis, p24. Bellingham, WA: Logos Bible Software, 2010.

        george

        gfsomsel

         search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
         love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
         defend the truth till death.
        - Jan Hus
        _________



        >________________________________
        > From: Dustin Smith <kggospel@...>
        >To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        >Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 5:31 PM
        >Subject: [revelation-list] Rev 20:4 = 1 group or 2 groups?
        >

        >
        >Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks
        >understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group
        >(the beheaded martyrs who refused to compromise) or to two distinct groups
        >(martyrs and non-martyrs who refused to compromise).
        >
        >I am leaning in favor of the former, but I recognize that ch 20 is by no
        >means unambiguous in its descriptions.
        >
        >--
        >Dustin Smith
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n
        John saw souls upon thrones. The beheading represents early martyrdom like John the Baptist.  I believe these are the firstfruits as in 14:4 or 6:9. ---
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 1, 2013
          John saw souls upon thrones. The beheading represents early martyrdom like John the Baptist.  I believe these are the firstfruits as in 14:4 or 6:9. --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, <kggospel@...> wrote: Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks
          understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group
          (the beheaded martyrs who refused to compromise) or to two distinct groups
          (martyrs and non-martyrs who refused to compromise).

          I am leaning in favor of the former, but I recognize that ch 20 is by no
          means unambiguous in its descriptions.

          --
          Dustin Smith


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • George F Somsel
          No, the firstfruits of 14.4 are Jewish while those of 20.4 are Christian.  Those of 14.4 are of the 144,000 Jews in cap 7. george gfsomsel  search for truth,
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 1, 2013
            No, the firstfruits of 14.4 are Jewish while those of 20.4 are Christian.  Those of 14.4 are of the 144,000 Jews in cap 7.

            george

            gfsomsel

             search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
             love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
             defend the truth till death.

            - Jan Hus
            _________



            >________________________________
            > From: "rocsy@..." <rocsy@...>
            >To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            >Sent: Sunday, September 1, 2013 9:30 PM
            >Subject: [revelation-list] RE: Rev 20:4 = 1 group or 2 groups?
            >

            >
            >John saw souls upon thrones. The beheading represents early martyrdom like John the Baptist.  I believe these are the firstfruits as in 14:4 or 6:9. --- In mailto:revelation-list%40yahoogroups.com, <kggospel@...> wrote: Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks
            >understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group
            >(the beheaded martyrs who refused to compromise) or to two distinct groups
            >(martyrs and non-martyrs who refused to compromise).
            >
            >I am leaning in favor of the former, but I recognize that ch 20 is by no
            >means unambiguous in its descriptions.
            >
            >--
            >Dustin Smith
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Randy Rogers
            Going with martyrs. The millennium is their reward for their sacrifice. R Rogers ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 18 , Sep 2, 2013
              Going with martyrs. The millennium is their reward for their sacrifice.
              R Rogers
              On Sep 1, 2013 7:31 PM, "Dustin Smith" <kggospel@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks
              > understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group
              > (the beheaded martyrs who refused to compromise) or to two distinct groups
              > (martyrs and non-martyrs who refused to compromise).
              >
              > I am leaning in favor of the former, but I recognize that ch 20 is by no
              > means unambiguous in its descriptions.
              >
              > --
              > Dustin Smith
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Timothy Jenney
              The question is more difficult than two groups. Whom do the beheaded represent? Just how literal are we to take this? Are they only those who died as Jesus
              Message 6 of 18 , Sep 2, 2013
                The question is more difficult than two groups. Whom do the "beheaded" represent? Just how literal are we to take this?

                Are they only those who died as Jesus' witnesses by the specific method of beheading? Or by metonymy do they represent every Christian martyr who was killed, whatever the method?

                If the latter, the pressing question is how far do we extend the group? To those persecuted for the cross who were injured, but not killed? To those who witnessed mightily and faced down opposition, but were not physically harmed? To all Christians, for whom the martyrs represent the ideal?

                These are tough questions for interpreters—and I don't believe the data to resolve them is in the book itself.

                Blessings,
                Tim

                Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D
                Adj, Faculty, Regent University SOD
                Host, Lighting the Lamp, Accordance Bible Software



                On Sep 2, 2013, at 7:53 AM, Randy Rogers <r4ndy.r0g3r5@...> wrote:

                > Going with martyrs. The millennium is their reward for their sacrifice.
                > R Rogers
                > On Sep 1, 2013 7:31 PM, "Dustin Smith" <kggospel@...> wrote:
                >
                >> **
                >>
                >>
                >> Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks
                >> understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group
                >> (the beheaded martyrs who refused to compromise) or to two distinct groups
                >> (martyrs and non-martyrs who refused to compromise).
                >>
                >> I am leaning in favor of the former, but I recognize that ch 20 is by no
                >> means unambiguous in its descriptions.
                >>
                >> --
                >> Dustin Smith
                >>
                >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
              • George F Somsel
                After many years of studying the Apocalypse I have come to the conclusion that the author envisions ALL Christians as martyrs for their faith regardless of
                Message 7 of 18 , Sep 2, 2013
                  After many years of studying the Apocalypse I have come to the conclusion that the author envisions ALL Christians as martyrs for their faith regardless of whether they are physically harmed or not. 
                   
                  In response to a comment made previously regarding the pattern for those "beheaded", I tend to think that the exemplar for this was Paul rather than John the Baptist.

                  george
                  gfsomsel

                  search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.

                  - Jan Hus
                  _________



                  >________________________________
                  > From: Timothy Jenney <drjenney@...>
                  >To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  >Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 7:30 AM
                  >Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Rev 20:4 = 1 group or 2 groups?
                  >
                  >
                  >The question is more difficult than two groups. Whom do the "beheaded" represent? Just how literal are we to take this?
                  >
                  >Are they only those who died as Jesus' witnesses by the specific method of beheading? Or by metonymy do they represent every Christian martyr who was killed, whatever the method?
                  >
                  >If the latter, the pressing question is how far do we extend the group? To those persecuted for the cross who were injured, but not killed? To those who witnessed mightily and faced down opposition, but were not physically harmed? To all Christians, for whom the martyrs represent the ideal?
                  >
                  >These are tough questions for interpreters—and I don't believe the data to resolve them is in the book itself.
                  >
                  >Blessings,
                  >Tim
                  >
                  >Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D
                  >Adj, Faculty, Regent University SOD
                  >Host, Lighting the Lamp, Accordance Bible Software
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >On Sep 2, 2013, at 7:53 AM, Randy Rogers <r4ndy.r0g3r5@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> Going with martyrs.  The millennium is their reward for their sacrifice.
                  >> R Rogers
                  >> On Sep 1, 2013 7:31 PM, "Dustin Smith" <kggospel@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >>> **
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>> Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks
                  >>> understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group
                  >>> (the beheaded martyrs who refused to compromise) or to two distinct groups
                  >>> (martyrs and non-martyrs who refused to compromise).
                  >>>
                  >>> I am leaning in favor of the former, but I recognize that ch 20 is by no
                  >>> means unambiguous in its descriptions.
                  >>>
                  >>> --
                  >>> Dustin Smith
                  >>>
                  >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >------------------------------------
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Randy Rogers
                  Engaging and inspiring conversation as always. For me the martyrs and the survivors are separated in Revelation 7. Thus we have a group set apart and
                  Message 8 of 18 , Sep 3, 2013
                    Engaging and inspiring conversation as always. For me the martyrs and the
                    survivors are separated in Revelation 7. Thus we have a group set apart
                    and protected and a group set apart for martyrdom. Those set apart for
                    martyrdom are rewarded at the Millennium, however we define Millennium.

                    Randy Rogers
                    On Sep 1, 2013 7:31 PM, "Dustin Smith" <kggospel@...> wrote:

                    > **
                    >
                    >
                    > Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks
                    > understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group
                    > (the beheaded martyrs who refused to compromise) or to two distinct groups
                    > (martyrs and non-martyrs who refused to compromise).
                    >
                    > I am leaning in favor of the former, but I recognize that ch 20 is by no
                    > means unambiguous in its descriptions.
                    >
                    > --
                    > Dustin Smith
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Timothy Jenney
                    The martyrs of Revelation are an important key to understanding the whole book, however one identifies them. Rev. 6:9-11 ties the return of Christ [=the
                    Message 9 of 18 , Sep 3, 2013
                      The martyrs of Revelation are an important key to understanding the whole book, however one identifies them.

                      Rev. 6:9-11 ties the return of Christ [=the judgment of God] to the number of martyrs killed, a rather grim inverse of the rabbinic contention that the world would end when all the souls God created in the beginning were finally given bodies.

                      Thus, every martyr advances the "Divine clock" one notch forward. Every "testimony" (Gk. marturia) moves the whole of history towards its final conclusion.

                      It's no wonder the early Church had a problem with people seeking martyrdom out of selfish ambition! They not only sought personal glory, but sought to bring about the return of Christ through their own works.

                      Blessings,
                      Tim

                      Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                      Adj, Regent SOD
                      Host, Lighting the Lamp,
                      Accordance Bible Software


                      On Sep 3, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Randy Rogers <r4ndy.r0g3r5@...> wrote:

                      > Engaging and inspiring conversation as always. For me the martyrs and the
                      > survivors are separated in Revelation 7. Thus we have a group set apart
                      > and protected and a group set apart for martyrdom. Those set apart for
                      > martyrdom are rewarded at the Millennium, however we define Millennium.
                      >
                      > Randy Rogers
                      > On Sep 1, 2013 7:31 PM, "Dustin Smith" <kggospel@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >> **
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Just looking to get a show of hands, per se, on whether you folks
                      >> understand the individuals described in Rev. 20:4 to refer to one group
                      >> (the beheaded martyrs who refused to compromise) or to two distinct groups
                      >> (martyrs and non-martyrs who refused to compromise).
                      >>
                      >> I am leaning in favor of the former, but I recognize that ch 20 is by no
                      >> means unambiguous in its descriptions.
                      >>
                      >> --
                      >> Dustin Smith
                      >>
                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Moriah Plastics - Jason Coates
                      I do remember the idea that there are two sets of martyrs or some ambiguity or extra value inherent here. Perhaps the Greek scholars could explain the word
                      Message 10 of 18 , Sep 3, 2013
                        I do remember the idea that there are two sets of martyrs or some ambiguity
                        or extra value inherent here. Perhaps the Greek scholars could explain the
                        word "beheaded" And the use of the word in the NT? Specifically Matt 14 and
                        Mark 6. If St. John the Baptist is alluded to - being the last martyr of the
                        Old Covenant and forerunner of the Chrisy- his beheading most significantly
                        emphasised that perhaps St John is revealing Old Covenant martyrs and their
                        inclusion in the fullness of Covenant.



                        1. The Testimony of Jesus

                        2. The Word of God.

                        - the OT prophets pointing the way - the law and the prophets up to John the
                        Baptiser - the forerunner



                        Are they the same martyrs as under the altar or can they be different or
                        even both?





                        Jason Coates







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • George F Somsel
                        I don t think those beheaded for their testimony to Jesus reflect John the Baptist but rather St Paul.  Under any dating you wish to choose, Paul would have
                        Message 11 of 18 , Sep 3, 2013
                          I don't think those "beheaded for their testimony to Jesus" reflect John the Baptist but rather St Paul.  Under any dating you wish to choose, Paul would have been martyred by the time the Apocalypse was written.  The OT martyrs are reflected in 13.1-14.5.

                          george

                          gfsomsel

                           search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                           love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                           defend the truth till death.

                          - Jan Hus
                          _________



                          >________________________________
                          > From: Moriah Plastics - Jason Coates <jasonnola@...>
                          >To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                          >Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 7:41 AM
                          >Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Rev 20:4 = 1 group or 2 groups?
                          >

                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >I do remember the idea that there are two sets of martyrs or some ambiguity
                          >or extra value inherent here. Perhaps the Greek scholars could explain the
                          >word "beheaded" And the use of the word in the NT? Specifically Matt 14 and
                          >Mark 6. If St. John the Baptist is alluded to - being the last martyr of the
                          >Old Covenant and forerunner of the Chrisy- his beheading most significantly
                          >emphasised that perhaps St John is revealing Old Covenant martyrs and their
                          >inclusion in the fullness of Covenant.
                          >
                          >1. The Testimony of Jesus
                          >
                          >2. The Word of God.
                          >
                          >- the OT prophets pointing the way - the law and the prophets up to John the
                          >Baptiser - the forerunner
                          >
                          >Are they the same martyrs as under the altar or can they be different or
                          >even both?
                          >
                          >Jason Coates
                          >
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Randy Rogers
                          Very interesting thought. Not sure if a deeper morphology on beheading helps. We see the connection to the OT prophets, and that is enough, I think. But,
                          Message 12 of 18 , Sep 3, 2013
                            Very interesting thought. Not sure if a deeper morphology on "beheading"
                            helps. We see the connection to the OT prophets, and that is enough, I
                            think. But, if we limit this image of martyrs to the OT covenant only,
                            then aren't we boxing John into a Preterist box that requires immediate,
                            1st Century fulfillment? It appears that he is either seeing the
                            fulfillment of the OT covenant, as you describe it, or he is using OT
                            imagery to describe current and future martyrs to come. I only see an OT
                            imagery metaphor that connects the current and future struggle with those
                            of the OT prophets of the past. But I don't see a literal fulfillment and
                            comforting of OT figures. I think this limits John's focus on things to
                            come.

                            Still, a very compelling question. Thanks.


                            On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Moriah Plastics - Jason Coates <
                            jasonnola@...> wrote:

                            > **
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I do remember the idea that there are two sets of martyrs or some ambiguity
                            > or extra value inherent here. Perhaps the Greek scholars could explain the
                            > word "beheaded" And the use of the word in the NT? Specifically Matt 14 and
                            > Mark 6. If St. John the Baptist is alluded to - being the last martyr of
                            > the
                            > Old Covenant and forerunner of the Chrisy- his beheading most significantly
                            > emphasised that perhaps St John is revealing Old Covenant martyrs and their
                            > inclusion in the fullness of Covenant.
                            >
                            > 1. The Testimony of Jesus
                            >
                            > 2. The Word of God.
                            >
                            > - the OT prophets pointing the way - the law and the prophets up to John
                            > the
                            > Baptiser - the forerunner
                            >
                            > Are they the same martyrs as under the altar or can they be different or
                            > even both?
                            >
                            > Jason Coates
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            --
                            Dr. Randolph R.Rogers
                            Assistant Professor, Religion
                            Wayland Baptist Univeristy


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Timothy Jenney
                            I agree with George that Revelation s reference to beheading most likely finds it antecedent in Paul s death, which would have been much more recent than that
                            Message 13 of 18 , Sep 3, 2013
                              I agree with George that Revelation's reference to beheading most likely finds it antecedent in Paul's death, which would have been much more recent than that of John the Baptist.

                              In this case, the etymology of the word "behead" (Gk. pelekizo) is of very little use. It simply means "behead."

                              Perhaps more relevant is that fact that this was the typical capital punishment for a Roman citizen, as opposed to Jesus or Peter, non-citizens, who could be crucified. [John the Baptist's death notwithstanding.]. Followers of Jesus could be beheaded for many different reasons, including being a member of an outlawed religion or treason against the state. Being a Christian, as various points in the history of Rome, would qualify for such punishment under either law.

                              It is tempting to see here the penalty for not worshiping the Roman emperor at one of the many temples that celebrated his deity. However, there is little extant evidence that any such practice occurred, even in Asia Minor, where the temples seemed to have greater status than in Rome itself. The trouble is that most of our records are from Rome itself, few from the eastern provinces.

                              Blessings,
                              Tim

                              Timothy P. Jenney, Ph.D.
                              Acquisitions Editor, TDWP
                              Adj. Faculty, Regent University, School of Divinity
                              Host, Lighting the Lamp, Accordance Bible Software



                              On Sep 3, 2013, at 10:55 AM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

                              > I don't think those "beheaded for their testimony to Jesus" reflect John the Baptist but rather St Paul. Under any dating you wish to choose, Paul would have been martyred by the time the Apocalypse was written. The OT martyrs are reflected in 13.1-14.5.
                              >
                              > george
                              >
                              > gfsomsel
                              >
                              > search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                              > love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                              > defend the truth till death.
                              >
                              > - Jan Hus
                              > _________
                              > �
                              >
                              > >________________________________
                              > > From: Moriah Plastics - Jason Coates <jasonnola@...>
                              > >To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                              > >Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 7:41 AM
                              > >Subject: RE: [revelation-list] Rev 20:4 = 1 group or 2 groups?
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >I do remember the idea that there are two sets of martyrs or some ambiguity
                              > >or extra value inherent here. Perhaps the Greek scholars could explain the
                              > >word "beheaded" And the use of the word in the NT? Specifically Matt 14 and
                              > >Mark 6. If St. John the Baptist is alluded to - being the last martyr of the
                              > >Old Covenant and forerunner of the Chrisy- his beheading most significantly
                              > >emphasised that perhaps St John is revealing Old Covenant martyrs and their
                              > >inclusion in the fullness of Covenant.
                              > >
                              > >1. The Testimony of Jesus
                              > >
                              > >2. The Word of God.
                              > >
                              > >- the OT prophets pointing the way - the law and the prophets up to John the
                              > >Baptiser - the forerunner
                              > >
                              > >Are they the same martyrs as under the altar or can they be different or
                              > >even both?
                              > >
                              > >Jason Coates
                              > >
                              > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • kymhsm
                              Hi all, George especially, was not going to engage and still do not wish to send the discussion off on a tangent but I have argued on this site - a long time
                              Message 14 of 18 , Sep 3, 2013
                                Hi all, George especially, was not going to engage and still do not wish to send the discussion off on
                                a tangent but I have argued on this site - a long time ago - for an early Revelation, no later than
                                mid 62, so before Paul's death (64) and before most of the NT was written. If correct, there can be
                                no reflection of Paul.

                                Kym

                                Kym Smith
                                All Saints Anglican Church
                                Seacliff, South Australia
                                and Chaplain
                                Flinders Medical Centre


                                On Wed, Sep 4th, 2013 at 12:55 AM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

                                > I don't think those "beheaded for their testimony to Jesus" reflect John
                                > the Baptist but rather St Paul.  Under any dating you wish to choose,
                                > Paul would have been martyred by the time the Apocalypse was written. 
                                > The OT martyrs are reflected in 13.1-14.5.
                                >
                                > george
                                >
                                > gfsomsel
                                >
                                >  search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                                >  love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                >  defend the truth till death.
                                >
                                > - Jan Hus
                                > _________
                              • Timothy Jenney
                                [Chuckle] and I thought I held to an early date! I argue for 68 AD, just after the death of Nero and while Jerusalem lay under siege. George, of course, holds
                                Message 15 of 18 , Sep 3, 2013
                                  [Chuckle] and I thought I held to an early date! I argue for 68 AD, just after the death of Nero and while Jerusalem lay under siege.

                                  George, of course, holds to the later date.

                                  Blessings,
                                  Dr. J
                                  (Sent from my iPhone)

                                  On Sep 3, 2013, at 9:08 PM, khs@... wrote:

                                  > Hi all, George especially, was not going to engage and still do not wish to send the discussion off on
                                  > a tangent but I have argued on this site - a long time ago - for an early Revelation, no later than
                                  > mid 62, so before Paul's death (64) and before most of the NT was written. If correct, there can be
                                  > no reflection of Paul.
                                  >
                                  > Kym
                                  >
                                  > Kym Smith
                                  > All Saints Anglican Church
                                  > Seacliff, South Australia
                                  > and Chaplain
                                  > Flinders Medical Centre
                                  >
                                  > On Wed, Sep 4th, 2013 at 12:55 AM, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I don't think those "beheaded for their testimony to Jesus" reflect John
                                  > > the Baptist but rather St Paul. Under any dating you wish to choose,
                                  > > Paul would have been martyred by the time the Apocalypse was written.
                                  > > The OT martyrs are reflected in 13.1-14.5.
                                  > >
                                  > > george
                                  > >
                                  > > gfsomsel
                                  > >
                                  > > search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                                  > > love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                  > > defend the truth till death.
                                  > >
                                  > > - Jan Hus
                                  > > _________
                                  >


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • George F Somsel
                                  Such an early date for the Apocalypse is an impossibility for a number of reasons. 1. The Church at Smyrna was not founded by Paul but was later as is
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Sep 3, 2013
                                    Such an early date for the Apocalypse is an impossibility for a number of reasons.
                                    1. The Church at Smyrna was not founded by Paul but was later as is indicated by the Epistle of Polycarp to the Philippians 11.2-3                                                                                                                                                                         "Or do we not know that the saints will judge the world," as Paul teaches? (3) But I have not observed or heard of any such thing among you, in whose midst the blessed Paul labored, and who were his letters of recommendation in the beginning. For he boasts about you in all the churches—those alone, that is, which at that time had come to know the Lord,63 for we had not yet come to know him.
                                    2. The governance of the Churches is not that depicted in the Pauline letters—it is apparent that there was a monarchical episcopate at the time of the writing of the Apocalypse (The Letters to the Seven Churches were written to the bishops of those churches and indicate by the authority with which the author speaks that the circuit which included them comprised a diocese.
                                    3. The relations between the Church and the Synagogue reflect a later period which is most likely that of the Bar Kockba revolt.
                                     

                                    george

                                    gfsomsel

                                     search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                                     love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                     defend the truth till death.

                                    - Jan Hus
                                    _________



                                    >________________________________
                                    > From: "khs@..." <khs@...>
                                    >To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                                    >Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 6:08 PM
                                    >Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Rev 20:4 = 1 group or 2 groups?
                                    >

                                    >
                                    >Hi all, George especially, was not going to engage and still do not wish to send the discussion off on
                                    >a tangent but I have argued on this site - a long time ago - for an early Revelation, no later than
                                    >mid 62, so before Paul's death (64) and before most of the NT was written. If correct, there can be
                                    >no reflection of Paul.
                                    >
                                    >Kym
                                    >
                                    >Kym Smith
                                    >All Saints Anglican Church
                                    >Seacliff, South Australia
                                    >and Chaplain
                                    >Flinders Medical Centre
                                    >
                                    >On Wed, Sep 4th, 2013 at 12:55 AM, George F Somsel <mailto:gfsomsel%40yahoo.com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >> I don't think those "beheaded for their testimony to Jesus" reflect John
                                    >> the Baptist but rather St Paul.  Under any dating you wish to choose,
                                    >> Paul would have been martyred by the time the Apocalypse was written. 
                                    >> The OT martyrs are reflected in 13.1-14.5.
                                    >>
                                    >> george
                                    >>
                                    >> gfsomsel
                                    >>
                                    >>  search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                                    >>  love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                                    >>  defend the truth till death.
                                    >>
                                    >> - Jan Hus
                                    >> _________
                                    >
                                    >

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Moriah Plastics - Jason Coates
                                    The subject of beheading in Matt and Mark is John the Baptizer. Our latter day Elijah. St. Paul’s beheading, if it took place during Nero’s reign may then
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Sep 4, 2013

                                      The subject of beheading in Matt and Mark is John the Baptizer. Our latter day Elijah. St. Paul’s beheading, if it took place during Nero’s reign may then have been of relevance to this text if one ascribes to a later date for the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Then again, it could be a contemporary reference or a prophecy of what was to come, but the author does not make that clear – referencing the beheading to the two other occurrences within the New Testament does make it clear that the modus operandi in John’s case was going for the head. Chopping off the head as the seat of government seems to have been a traditional mid-eastern  approach towards settling scores.

                                      The persecution of the church and Nero’s attempt to destroy the Apostolic mandate.

                                       

                                      The question remains are we dealing with two sets of martyrs here or one? I would say both – same but different. It is not a dualistic simplicity.

                                       

                                      Jason Coates

                                      S. Africa

                                       

                                    • e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n
                                      New Year s Greetings, Personally, I am less interested in modern interpretation than in the understanding of the earliest Christians in the tradition of the
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jan 1, 2014


                                        New Year's Greetings,


                                        Personally, I am less interested in modern interpretation than in the understanding of the earliest Christians in the tradition of the apostles. Here are a couple of examples.


                                        >>Sheperd of Hermas

                                        SIMILITUDE NINTH. 

                                        CHAP. XVII.

                                        “I understand, sir,” I replied. “Now, sir,” I continued, “explain to me, with respect to the mountains, why their forms are various and diverse.” “Listen,” he said: “these mountains are the twelve tribes, which inhabit the whole world.  [Rev. vii. 4.] The Son of God, accordingly, was preached unto them by the apostles.” “But why are the mountains of various kinds, some having one form, and others another? Explain that to me, sir.” “Listen,” he answered: “these twelve tribes that inhabit the whole world are twelve nations. And they vary in prudence and understanding. As numerous, then, as are the varieties of the mountains which you saw, 

                                        are also the diversities of mind and understanding among these nations. And I will explain to you the actions of each one.” “First, sir,” I said, “explain this: why, when the mountains are so diverse, their stones, when placed in the building, became one colour, shining like those also that had ascended out of the pit.” “Because,” he said, “all the nations that dwell under heaven were called by hearing and believing upon the name of the Son of God. [Rom. x. 17.] Having, therefore, received the seal, they had one understanding and one mind; and their faith became one, and their love one, and with the name they bore also the spirits of the virgins. [Rev. xiv. 4.] On this account the building of the tower became of one colour, bright as the sun. But after they had entered into the same place, and became one body, certain of these defiled themselves, and were expelled from the race of the righteous, and became again what they were before, or rather worse.”<<


                                        1. Twelve mountains are twelve tribes and twelve nations that inhabit the whole world. (14:1-4, 5:9, 15:3) They were preached to by the apostles.


                                        2. All the nations under heaven were called. (7:9) The twelve responded and were as virgins. 


                                        3. They bore the spirits of virgins. (14:4)



                                        >>Tertullian

                                        On the Resurrection of the Flesh

                                        Chapter XXVII.—Certain Metaphorical Terms Explained of the Resurrection of the Flesh.

                                        We have also in the Scriptures robes mentioned as allegorizing the hope of the flesh. Thus in the Revelation of John it is said:  “These are they which have not defiled their clothes with women,” ( Rev. iii. 4 and xiv. 4.) —indicating, of course, virgins, and such as have become “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven’s sake.” (Matt. xix. 12.) Therefore they shall be “clothed in white raiment,” (Rev. iii. 5.) that is, in the bright beauty of the unwedded flesh. In the gospel even, “the wedding garment” may be regarded as the sanctity of the flesh. (Matt. xxii. 11, 12.) And so, when Isaiah tells us what sort of “fast the Lord hath chosen,” and subjoins a statement about the reward of good works, he says: “Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thy garments, shall speedily arise;” (Isa. lviii. 8.) where he has no thought of cloaks or stuff gowns, but means the rising of the flesh, which he declared the resurrection of, after its fall in death. Thus we are furnished even with an allegorical defence of the resurrection of the body. When, then, we read, “Go, my people, enter into your closets for a little season, until my anger pass away,” ( Isa. xxvi. 20). we have in the closets graves, in which they will have to rest for a little while, who shall have at the end of the world departed this life in the last furious onset of the power of Antichrist.<<



                                        Alan Fuller

                                        https://sites.google.com/site/apocalypticwisdom/


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