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Re: [revelation-list] Re: Apostolic Interpretation

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  • George F Somsel
    Dionysius of Alexandria wrote to oppose a chiliast view before Eusebius as well. 1 Besides all these the two books on the Promises were prepared by him. The
    Message 1 of 43 , Jan 14, 2011
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      Dionysius of Alexandria wrote to oppose a chiliast view before Eusebius as well.
      1 Besides all these the two books on the Promises were prepared by him. The
      occasion of these was Nepos, a bishop in Egypt, who taught that the promises to
      the holy men in the Divine Scriptures should be understood in a more Jewish
      manner, and that there would be a certain millennium of bodily luxury upon this
      earth.
      2 As he thought that he could establish his private opinion by the Revelation of
      John, he wrote a book on this subject, entitled Refutation of Allegorists.
      3 Dionysius opposes this in his books on the Promises. In the first he gives his
      own opinion of the dogma; and in the second he treats of the Revelation of John,
      and mentioning Nepos at the beginning, writes of him in this manner:
      Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History vii.24

       george
      gfsomsel


      … search for truth, hear truth,
      learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      defend the truth till death.


      - Jan Hus
      _________




      ________________________________
      From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
      To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 10:14:22 AM
      Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Apostolic Interpretation

       
      Thank you,

      Here is the article about Eusebius.

      http://www.jstor.org/pss/1583992

      I am saying what Cerinthius believed was something diffferent than Papias
      understood from the apostolic tradition. Note that Irenaeus seems to think
      highly of Papias, but considers Cerinthius a heretic. I doubt that would be the
      case if their eschatology was the same.

      Alan Fuller
      http://www.lulu.com/arfuller

      BTW, I earlier attributed "The Legend of Antichrist" to R.H. Charles. The author
      is Wilhelm Bousset. I was thinking about a translation of "The Ascension of
      Isaiah" by Charles.

      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
      >
      > Offhand, I don't recall that Eusebius changed his eschatology though he did
      > change his Christology depending upon which direction the political winds
      >seemed
      >
      > to be blowing.  In any case, we know rather little regarding Papias, and
      > Cherinthus was rejected due to his millenial eschatology (though there were
      > undoubtedly other problems as well).  Whether only one or both were considered
      >
      > to be millenialists it indicates that such a view was not favored in the Church
      >
      > of the time. 
      >
      >  
      >  
      > george
      > gfsomsel
      >
      >
      > … search for truth, hear truth,
      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      > defend the truth till death.
      >
      >
      > - Jan Hus
      > _________
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 7:50:25 AM
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Apostolic Interpretation
      >
      >  
      >
      >
      > Thank you for re-posting the comments of Eusebius that were discussed in April.
      >
      > You may remember that Eusebius changed his eschatology after Rome adopted
      > Christianity.
      >
      > Eusebius was a defender of Imperial Christianity. Please remember my earlier
      > statements.
      >
      > Later fathers after Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria, associated the future
      > imminent break up of the Roman Empire with the appearance of Antichrist. In the
      >
      > fourth century the Roman emperor Constantine made Christianity the religion of

      > the Roman Empire. Of course any talk about the breakup of the Roman Empire
      > wouldn't have been taken very favorably, and the writings of the church fathers
      >
      > probably reflect that. Many writings that were popular with the early
      > Christians, such as the Enoch books, Jubilees and the apostolic father Papias,

      > become scarce in Europe.
      >
      >
      > I do not find evidence that Papias taught a literal thousand year period of a
      > messianic reign upon this earth. Barnabas, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and
      > Tertullian did not teach it, and none of them said Papias taught a literal
      >reign
      >
      > upon this earth before the final judgment.
      >
      > They consistently taught the 7th millennium was on the new earth after the
      > judgment. The thousand year periods came from 1 Enoch and Jubilees and were
      > based on Genesis 2:17. What those early fathers understood was very close to
      > amillennialism. Something close to modern premillennialism wasn't taught in the
      >
      > Christian tradition, besides the heretic Cerinthius, until Nepos of Egypt.
      >
      > After the empire took over the church there was a reaction against the earlier

      > chiliasm because of its association with the breakup of the Roman empire.
      >That's
      >
      > where the confusion about chiliasm began.
      >
      >
      > >>4. And these things are borne witness to in writing by Papias, the hearer of

      > >>John, and a companion of Polycarp, in his fourth book; <<
      >
      > Papias is mentioned by Irenaeus, Adv. Heresies. V. 33. 4, who informs us that
      >he
      >
      > was a companion of Polycarp and a hearer of the apostle John. The justice of
      > this criticism, passed by Eusebius upon the statement of Irenaeus, has been
      > questioned by many, who have held that,in the passage, the same John is meant
      >in
      >
      > both cases.
      >
      > Alan Fuller
      >
      > --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@> wrote:
      > >
      > > 1 There are extant five books of Papias, which bear the title Expositions of

      > > Oracles of the Lord. Irenaeus makes mention of these as the only works
      >written
      >
      >
      > > by him,378 in the following words: "These things are attested by Papias, an
      > > ancient man who was a hearer of John and a companion of Polycarp, in his
      >fourth
      >
      > >
      > > book. For five books have been written by him." These are the words of
      > >Irenaeus.
      > > 2 But Papias himself in the preface to his discourses by no means declares
      >that
      >
      > >
      > > he was himself a hearer and eye-witness of the holy apostles, but he shows by
      >
      > > the words which he uses that he received the doctrines of the faith from
      >those
      >
      >
      > > who were their friends.
      > > 3 He says: "But I shall not hesitate also to put down for you along with my
      > > interpretations whatsoever things I have at any time learned carefully from
      >the
      >
      > >
      > > elders382 and carefully remembered, guaranteeing their truth. For I did not,

      > > like the multitude, take pleasure in those that speak much, but in those that
      >
      > > teach the truth; not in those that relate strange commandments, but in those

      > > that deliver the commandments given by the Lord to faith,384 and springing
      >from
      >
      > >
      > > the truth itself.
      > > 4 If, then, any one came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned
      >
      > > him in regard to the words of the elders,â€"what Andrew or what Peter
      >said, or
      >
      >
      > > what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by
      >Matthew,
      >
      >
      > > or by any other of the disciples of the Lord, and what things Aristion and
      >the
      >
      >
      > > presbyter John,386 the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that
      > >what
      > >
      > > was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from the
      >
      > > living and abiding voice."
      > > 5 It is worth while observing here that the name John is twice enumerated by

      > > him. The first one he mentions in connection with Peter and James and Matthew
      >
      > > and the rest of the apostles, clearly meaning the evangelist; but the other
      > >John
      > >
      > > he mentions after an interval, and places him among others outside of the
      > >number
      > >
      > > of the apostles, putting Aristion before him, and he distinctly calls him a
      > > presbyter.
      > > 6 This shows that the statement of those is true, who say that there were two
      >
      > > persons in Asia that bore the same name, and that there were two tombs in
      > > Ephesus, each of which, even to the present day, si called John’s. It
      >is
      >
      > > important to notice this. For it is probable that it was the second, if one
      >is
      >
      >
      > > not willing to admit that it was the first that saw the Revelation, which is

      > > ascribed by name to John
      > > Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, iii.39
      > >
      > >  george
      > > gfsomsel
      > >
      > >
      > > … search for truth, hear truth,
      > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      > > defend the truth till death.
      > >
      > >
      > > - Jan Hus
      > > _
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >


       




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    • George F Somsel
      You must also remember that this would have been read more than once so there would be opportunities to pick up further details later.  george gfsomsel …
      Message 43 of 43 , Jan 15, 2011
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        You must also remember that this would have been read more than once so there
        would be opportunities to pick up further details later.

         george
        gfsomsel


        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________




        ________________________________
        From: Jon Newton <jonknewton@...>
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 4:05:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Apostolic Interpretation

         
        Thanks for those comments George

        I fully agree about the intended audience which is clearly stated in Rev.1

        I also fully agree about the centrality of Jesus is the text, which seemed to be
        Alan's key thought too.

        Not sure about your comments about the details and speed reading. While I'm sure
        each detail is by no means random, the original audience would have been
        hearing, not reading, the text. This helps explain the sevens and other
        structural features in Revelation. But it makes it unlikely they could
        concentrate on the intricate detail of each stage of the revelation.

        Jon

        (Pastor) Jon Newton

        --- On Sun, 16/1/11, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

        From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Apostolic Interpretation
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Sunday, 16 January, 2011, 3:31 AM

         

        I really don't know why we should discuss either Constantine or Justinian or any


        other figure subsequent to the penning of the Apocalypse.  It was not written

        primarily for a later age.  It was written for those to whom the book was

        delivered by the author's courier in his circuit around the loop which

        constituted the diocese of the author of the Apocalypse.  It was meant to be

        understood by them -- one must accept that it would have been compreshensible to


        them with their knowledge of the OT and the apocalyptic literature as well as

        the intimate knowledge they would have of their own age.  This was not something


        which would only become clear years and centuries or even millenia thereafter. 

        It was a message to the bishop's parishoners.  It is only a message to us today

        in the sense that they still convey the same vital message which was set to

        "paper" when it was written just as Paul's letters were primarily letters to

        living and breathing people of the time in which he lived.  They are still

        meaningful and even vitally significant to us today, but we understand them much


        less easily than the original recipients would have.

         george

        gfsomsel

        … search for truth, hear truth,

        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

        defend the truth till death.

        - Jan Hus

        _________

        ________________________________

        From: asteresplanetai <asteresplanetai@...>

        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 6:27:46 AM

        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Apostolic Interpretation

         

        +++

        > Posted by: "e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n" rocsy@... e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n

        > In the fourth century the Roman emperor Constantine made

        > Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire.

        Just a minor correction, although it may color the way one sees some

        things: Constantine did *not* make Christianity the religion of the

        Roman Empire. Constantine made Christianity *legal*-- that is, he

        stopped the persecutions-- by the Edict of Milan, and he certainly

        encouraged it-- but it was Justinian who made it officially 'the

        religion of the Roman Empire', about 2 centuries later.

        And as usual, it's good to keep in mind that 200 years back then were

        the same as 200 years today. From Constantine to Justinian would be

        the same length of time as between, say, Thomas Jefferson and Barack

        Obama.

        kind regards,

        John burnett.

        Help Uganda high school students graduate!

        http://jbburnett.com/africa/uganda%20kids%2020090111.pdf

        My South Africa education mission:

        http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=johnbburnett

        Contribute through Paypal at

        http://jbburnett.com/blogs/blogafrica.html

        or send checks to---

        St Nicholas African Education Fund

        102 Ross Avenue, San Anselmo, CA 94960

        Tel 415 454 0982

        Thanx!

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