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Re: Apostolic Interpretation

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  • e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n
    Thank you for your input. The primary idea that I m basing my theory on is that pre-Christian Palestinian Jewish interpretation was wrong. The Jews didn t
    Message 1 of 43 , Jan 13, 2011
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      Thank you for your input.

      The primary idea that I'm basing my theory on is that pre-Christian Palestinian Jewish interpretation was wrong. The Jews didn't accept their Messiah because they didn't recognize Him from scripture. Jesus revealed wisdom in His allegorical teachings. Every parable is an allegory. Somebody was right and somebody was wrong. Jesus was right and the Pharisees and Sadducees were wrong.

      First I look in the record of the NT and the orthodox church fathers to find the Jewish interpretation of Daniel. I don't find it in the apostolic fathers, or the second century fathers until Clement of Alexandria, and he cites Josephus. Josephus wasn't a Christian, or even a Rabbi. He was a Jewish historian for Rome. When early Christian fathers talk about Daniel, they fail to recite the Jewish interpretation as tradition until Clement of Alexandria. Instead they talk about Jewish error, spirit and law.

      I think the rules you give are post-reformation rules that were not likely to be followed when Revelation was written or by second century Christians.

      You ask some interesting questions, but I think they can understood in regards to the symbolism of the Gospel. Papias said that the creation week was an allegorical representation of the Gospel, and I think that's true. The Creation week and the Garden of Eden are a chiasm. The throne with the rainbow and the crystal sea represent the tabernacle (ark and laver(Exodus 38:8)). The sixth judgment is associated with blood because it is related to the cross. Here is how Justin Martyr explained Jerusalem.

      >>But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years. We have translated the text of Justin as it stands. Commentators make the sense, "and that there will be a thousand years in Jerusalem," or "that the saints will live a thousand years in Jerusalem." in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned (Rev 21:2):, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare. Dialogue with Trypho, LXXX<<

      I gave the reference to Irenaeus about 666 in the original post. The 144,000 are the overcomers. The three beasts represent the three lying spirits (16:13). The fifth seal corresponds to the little season (6:11, 20:3).

      I discuss these things further in my book, but I'm sure each item could be discussed in length, time is limited for the present. Basically, I see the Apocalypse as the Revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the OT. The sybolism of the beast/dragon shows the conflict between the Spirit in Scripture that Christ taught and the Law that He is the fulfillment of. The Sadducees, Pharisees and Judas are the beasts who misrepresent the Law and Spirit.

      Thank You,
      Alan Fuller
      http://www.lulu.com/arfuller

      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am really less concerned with the historically manifested schools of
      > interpretation of the Apocalypse than I am with interpreting it according to its
      > own principles.  First of all, it stands in the tradition of Jewish
      > apocalypticism such as Daniel.  Secondly, it makes use of certain tropes which
      > are standard to that literature and which must be understood to adequately
      > interpret the message of the book.  Thirdly, allegorical interpretation is not
      > to be followed unless the author himself indicates either by the tradition which
      > he follows or by his own writing that such an allegorical interpretation is to
      > be followed.  Fourthly, ALL elements of the narrative must be given due
      > consideration.  Why in cap 4 is there mention of the rainbow about the one
      > seated upon the throne?  Why is the "sea of crystal" mentioned?  Why is there
      > mention of the extent of the dispersal of the blood in the reaping of the
      > earth?  What is the significance of the dimensions of the New Jerusalem?  Why is
      > the New Jerusalem depicted as "coming down from God out of heaven"?  Why is the
      > number of the Beast 666 (surely this does NOT depict a use of gematria since
      > many, many names could be derived by this method)?  Why is the number of
      > the Beast to be on the RIGHT hand?  Why is it that the 144,000 are mentioned as
      > being on Mt Zion with the Lamb and singing the song of Moses and of the Lamb? 
      > Why are there THREE -- the Dragon, the Beast from the sea, and the Beast from
      > the Land?  Why are the martyrs in cap 6 which are under the altar said to be
      > Christians (I don't think they are to be considered such)? 
      >
      >
      > Charles mentions that ALL are to be martyrs.  At first I resisted such an
      > interpretation.  I have gradually come to think that he was correct in that
      > assertion though I don't think that they are to be considered to be physical
      > martyrs.  Those who were beheaded and sit on thrones and reign are not to be
      > considered to reign in a literal 1000 yr period since the 1000 year period is
      > one of those tropes which is manifest in both apocalyptic literature and in the
      > OT itself. 
      >
      >
      > There are three periods depicted in the Apocalypse (or two with a subdivision of
      > the second):  The antediluvian period (the martyrs of cap 6), the Jews (caps 13,
      > 14) and the Church.  Those who claim that there is no historical review in the
      > Apocalypse are incorrect.
      >
      >
      >  george
      > gfsomsel
      >
      >
      > … search for truth, hear truth,
      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      > defend the truth till death.
      >
      >
      > - Jan Hus
      > _________
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
      > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thu, January 13, 2011 1:47:51 PM
      > Subject: [revelation-list] Apostolic Interpretation
      >
      >  
      > Today there is little agreement on exactly what the Apocalypse is saying. There
      > are several major ideas that believers tend to cluster around such as preterism
      > or futurism, premill or amill, pre-trib or post-trib, etc. Most modern views
      > have been developed primarily in the last couple of hundred years, and are based
      > on modern methods of interpretation. Historical/literal and historical/critical
      > interpretations see the symbols of Revelation representing the historical
      > existence and actions of kingdoms and rulers, or perhaps future rulers and
      > nations.
      >
      >
      >
      > Alan Fuller
      > http://www.lulu.com/arfuller
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • George F Somsel
      You must also remember that this would have been read more than once so there would be opportunities to pick up further details later.  george gfsomsel …
      Message 43 of 43 , Jan 15, 2011
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        You must also remember that this would have been read more than once so there
        would be opportunities to pick up further details later.

         george
        gfsomsel


        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________




        ________________________________
        From: Jon Newton <jonknewton@...>
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 4:05:32 PM
        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Apostolic Interpretation

         
        Thanks for those comments George

        I fully agree about the intended audience which is clearly stated in Rev.1

        I also fully agree about the centrality of Jesus is the text, which seemed to be
        Alan's key thought too.

        Not sure about your comments about the details and speed reading. While I'm sure
        each detail is by no means random, the original audience would have been
        hearing, not reading, the text. This helps explain the sevens and other
        structural features in Revelation. But it makes it unlikely they could
        concentrate on the intricate detail of each stage of the revelation.

        Jon

        (Pastor) Jon Newton

        --- On Sun, 16/1/11, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

        From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Apostolic Interpretation
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Received: Sunday, 16 January, 2011, 3:31 AM

         

        I really don't know why we should discuss either Constantine or Justinian or any


        other figure subsequent to the penning of the Apocalypse.  It was not written

        primarily for a later age.  It was written for those to whom the book was

        delivered by the author's courier in his circuit around the loop which

        constituted the diocese of the author of the Apocalypse.  It was meant to be

        understood by them -- one must accept that it would have been compreshensible to


        them with their knowledge of the OT and the apocalyptic literature as well as

        the intimate knowledge they would have of their own age.  This was not something


        which would only become clear years and centuries or even millenia thereafter. 

        It was a message to the bishop's parishoners.  It is only a message to us today

        in the sense that they still convey the same vital message which was set to

        "paper" when it was written just as Paul's letters were primarily letters to

        living and breathing people of the time in which he lived.  They are still

        meaningful and even vitally significant to us today, but we understand them much


        less easily than the original recipients would have.

         george

        gfsomsel

        … search for truth, hear truth,

        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

        defend the truth till death.

        - Jan Hus

        _________

        ________________________________

        From: asteresplanetai <asteresplanetai@...>

        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com

        Sent: Sat, January 15, 2011 6:27:46 AM

        Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Apostolic Interpretation

         

        +++

        > Posted by: "e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n" rocsy@... e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n

        > In the fourth century the Roman emperor Constantine made

        > Christianity the religion of the Roman Empire.

        Just a minor correction, although it may color the way one sees some

        things: Constantine did *not* make Christianity the religion of the

        Roman Empire. Constantine made Christianity *legal*-- that is, he

        stopped the persecutions-- by the Edict of Milan, and he certainly

        encouraged it-- but it was Justinian who made it officially 'the

        religion of the Roman Empire', about 2 centuries later.

        And as usual, it's good to keep in mind that 200 years back then were

        the same as 200 years today. From Constantine to Justinian would be

        the same length of time as between, say, Thomas Jefferson and Barack

        Obama.

        kind regards,

        John burnett.

        Help Uganda high school students graduate!

        http://jbburnett.com/africa/uganda%20kids%2020090111.pdf

        My South Africa education mission:

        http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=johnbburnett

        Contribute through Paypal at

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        or send checks to---

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        102 Ross Avenue, San Anselmo, CA 94960

        Tel 415 454 0982

        Thanx!

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