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Re: Origin of Chiliasm

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  • e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n
    That would be the Apocalypse of Baruch 29:1-8. I believe Jubilees precedes it by two or three hundred years.
    Message 1 of 8 , May 29, 2010
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      That would be the Apocalypse of Baruch 29:1-8. I believe Jubilees precedes it by two or three hundred years.


      --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
      >
      > One must not restrict oneself to either Enoch or Jubilees for the background of chiliastic thought.  Papias was known to be a chiliast saying
      >
      > The days will come when vines will grow, each having ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs, and on each twig ten thousand clusters, and in each cluster ten thousand grapes, and each grape when crushed will yield twenty-five measures of wine. And when one of the saints takes hold of a cluster, another cluster will cry out, "I am better, take me, bless the Lord through me." Similarly a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand heads, and every head will have ten thousand grains, and every grain ten pounds of fine flour, white and clean. And the other fruits, seeds, and grass will produce in similar proportions, and all the animals feeding on these fruits produced by the soil will in turn become peaceful and harmonious toward one another, and fully subject to man.
      >  
      > Holmes, Michael William. The Apostolic Fathers : Greek Texts and English Translations (Fragments of Papias). Updated ed. Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books, 1999.
      >  
      > Compare this with
      >  291 And He answered and said unto me: ‘Whatever will then befall (will befall) the whole earth; therefore all who live will experience (them). 2 For at that time I will protect only those who are found in those self-same days in this land. 3 And it shall come to pass when all is accomplished that was to come to pass in those parts, that the Messiah shall then begin to be revealed. 4 And Behemoth shall be revealed from his place and Leviathan shall ascend from the sea, those two great monsters which I created on the fifth day of creation, and shall have kept until that time; and then they shall be for food for all that are left. 5 The earth also shall yield its fruit ten thousandfold and on each (?) V 2, p 498 vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cot of wine. 6 And those who have hungered shall rejoice: moreover, also, they shall
      > behold marvels every day. 7 For winds shall go forth from before Me to bring every morning the fragrance of aromatic fruits, and at the close of the day clouds distilling the dew of health. 8 And it shall come to pass at that self-same time that the treasury of manna shall again descend from on high, and they will eat of it in those years, because these are they who have come to the consummation of time.
      >  Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament
      >  
      > It would seem to have been a general characteristic of Jewish apocalypticism.
      >  
      >  
      > george
      > gfsomsel
      >
      >
      > … search for truth, hear truth,
      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      > defend the truth till death.
      >
      >
      > - Jan Hus
      > _________
      >
    • George F Somsel
      That s about right.  It was found at Qumran so we know with certainty that it existed then.  As I recall the Qumran calendar differed from that of the Temple
      Message 2 of 8 , May 29, 2010
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        That's about right.  It was found at Qumran so we know with certainty that it existed then.  As I recall the Qumran calendar differed from that of the Temple and seems to have been based on Jubilees.
         george
        gfsomsel


        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________




        ________________________________
        From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 11:38:07 AM
        Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Origin of Chiliasm

         


        That would be the Apocalypse of Baruch 29:1-8. I believe Jubilees precedes it by two or three hundred years.

        --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
        >
        > One must not restrict oneself to either Enoch or Jubilees for the background of chiliastic thought.  Papias was known to be a chiliast saying
        >
        > The days will come when vines will grow, each having ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs, and on each twig ten thousand clusters, and in each cluster ten thousand grapes, and each grape when crushed will yield twenty-five measures of wine. And when one of the saints takes hold of a cluster, another cluster will cry out, "I am better, take me, bless the Lord through me." Similarly a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand heads, and every head will have ten thousand grains, and every grain ten pounds of fine flour, white and clean. And the other fruits, seeds, and grass will produce in similar proportions, and all the animals feeding on these fruits produced by the soil will in turn become peaceful and harmonious toward one another, and fully subject to man.
        >  
        > Holmes, Michael William. The Apostolic Fathers : Greek Texts and English Translations (Fragments of Papias). Updated ed. Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books, 1999.
        >  
        > Compare this with
        >  291 And He answered and said unto me: ‘Whatever will then befall (will befall) the whole earth; therefore all who live will experience (them). 2 For at that time I will protect only those who are found in those self-same days in this land. 3 And it shall come to pass when all is accomplished that was to come to pass in those parts, that the Messiah shall then begin to be revealed. 4 And Behemoth shall be revealed from his place and Leviathan shall ascend from the sea, those two great monsters which I created on the fifth day of creation, and shall have kept until that time; and then they shall be for food for all that are left. 5 The earth also shall yield its fruit ten thousandfold and on each (?) V 2, p 498 vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cot of wine. 6 And those who have hungered shall rejoice: moreover, also,
        they shall
        > behold marvels every day. 7 For winds shall go forth from before Me to bring every morning the fragrance of aromatic fruits, and at the close of the day clouds distilling the dew of health. 8 And it shall come to pass at that self-same time that the treasury of manna shall again descend from on high, and they will eat of it in those years, because these are they who have come to the consummation of time.
        >  Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament
        >  
        > It would seem to have been a general characteristic of Jewish apocalypticism.
        >  
        >  
        > george
        > gfsomsel
        >
        >
        > … search for truth, hear truth,
        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        > defend the truth till death.
        >
        >
        > - Jan Hus
        > _________
        >







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • George F Somsel
        Incidentally, perhaps I shouldn t think things are too obvious, but I was struck by the similarity between the Papias quotation and that of 2 Baruch.  george
        Message 3 of 8 , May 29, 2010
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          Incidentally, perhaps I shouldn't think things are too obvious, but I was struck by the similarity between the Papias quotation and that of 2 Baruch.

           george
          gfsomsel


          … search for truth, hear truth,
          learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          defend the truth till death.


          - Jan Hus
          _________




          ________________________________
          From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
          To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 11:38:07 AM
          Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Origin of Chiliasm

           


          That would be the Apocalypse of Baruch 29:1-8. I believe Jubilees precedes it by two or three hundred years.

          --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
          >
          > One must not restrict oneself to either Enoch or Jubilees for the background of chiliastic thought.  Papias was known to be a chiliast saying
          >
          > The days will come when vines will grow, each having ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs, and on each twig ten thousand clusters, and in each cluster ten thousand grapes, and each grape when crushed will yield twenty-five measures of wine. And when one of the saints takes hold of a cluster, another cluster will cry out, "I am better, take me, bless the Lord through me." Similarly a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand heads, and every head will have ten thousand grains, and every grain ten pounds of fine flour, white and clean. And the other fruits, seeds, and grass will produce in similar proportions, and all the animals feeding on these fruits produced by the soil will in turn become peaceful and harmonious toward one another, and fully subject to man.
          >  
          > Holmes, Michael William. The Apostolic Fathers : Greek Texts and English Translations (Fragments of Papias). Updated ed. Grand Rapids, Mich.: Baker Books, 1999.
          >  
          > Compare this with
          >  291 And He answered and said unto me: ‘Whatever will then befall (will befall) the whole earth; therefore all who live will experience (them). 2 For at that time I will protect only those who are found in those self-same days in this land. 3 And it shall come to pass when all is accomplished that was to come to pass in those parts, that the Messiah shall then begin to be revealed. 4 And Behemoth shall be revealed from his place and Leviathan shall ascend from the sea, those two great monsters which I created on the fifth day of creation, and shall have kept until that time; and then they shall be for food for all that are left. 5 The earth also shall yield its fruit ten thousandfold and on each (?) V 2, p 498 vine there shall be a thousand branches, and each branch shall produce a thousand clusters, and each cluster produce a thousand grapes, and each grape produce a cot of wine. 6 And those who have hungered shall rejoice: moreover, also,
          they shall
          > behold marvels every day. 7 For winds shall go forth from before Me to bring every morning the fragrance of aromatic fruits, and at the close of the day clouds distilling the dew of health. 8 And it shall come to pass at that self-same time that the treasury of manna shall again descend from on high, and they will eat of it in those years, because these are they who have come to the consummation of time.
          >  Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament
          >  
          > It would seem to have been a general characteristic of Jewish apocalypticism.
          >  
          >  
          > george
          > gfsomsel
          >
          >
          > … search for truth, hear truth,
          > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          > defend the truth till death.
          >
          >
          > - Jan Hus
          > _________
          >







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n
          And rightly so Jan! I will also mention that Jubilees chapter 23 and 1:26-29 may be associated with the temporary messianic reign. I think that might be given
          Message 4 of 8 , May 29, 2010
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            And rightly so Jan!

            I will also mention that Jubilees chapter 23 and 1:26-29 may be associated with the temporary messianic reign. I think that might be given in an article I mentioned in an earlier post.

            J. W. Bailey, "The Temporary Messianic Reign in the Literature of Early Judaism," Journal of Biblical Literature, 53,.2 (1934): 170-187

            What is interesting to me is that Justin relates the life of Adam to a millennial reign, while Irenaeus thinks of it in terms of the life of Christ. That reminds me of Papias' assertion that the earliest expositors in Alexandria agreed that the creation week was an allegory of the life of Christ. That is the structure I see in Revelation, and the argument I put forward in my book.

            Alan Fuller
            http://www.lulu.com/arfuller

            --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
            >
            > Incidentally, perhaps I shouldn't think things are too obvious, but I was struck by the similarity between the Papias quotation and that of 2 Baruch.
            >
            >  george
            > gfsomsel
            >
            >
            > … search for truth, hear truth,
            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            > defend the truth till death.
            >
            >
            > - Jan Hus
            > _________
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • George F Somsel
            Of course, ultimately the concept of chiliasm goes back to the world week in which the world is to last 7 days of 1000 years each.  george gfsomsel …
            Message 5 of 8 , May 29, 2010
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              Of course, ultimately the concept of chiliasm goes back to the "world week" in which the world is to last 7 days of 1000 years each.
               george
              gfsomsel


              … search for truth, hear truth,
              learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              defend the truth till death.


              - Jan Hus
              _________




              ________________________________
              From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
              To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 12:38:37 PM
              Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Origin of Chiliasm

               


              And rightly so Jan!

              I will also mention that Jubilees chapter 23 and 1:26-29 may be associated with the temporary messianic reign. I think that might be given in an article I mentioned in an earlier post.

              J. W. Bailey, "The Temporary Messianic Reign in the Literature of Early Judaism," Journal of Biblical Literature, 53,.2 (1934): 170-187

              What is interesting to me is that Justin relates the life of Adam to a millennial reign, while Irenaeus thinks of it in terms of the life of Christ. That reminds me of Papias' assertion that the earliest expositors in Alexandria agreed that the creation week was an allegory of the life of Christ. That is the structure I see in Revelation, and the argument I put forward in my book.

              Alan Fuller
              http://www.lulu.com/arfuller

              --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
              >
              > Incidentally, perhaps I shouldn't think things are too obvious, but I was struck by the similarity between the Papias quotation and that of 2 Baruch.
              >
              >  george
              > gfsomsel
              >
              >
              > … search for truth, hear truth,
              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              > defend the truth till death.
              >
              >
              > - Jan Hus
              > _________
              >
              >
              >
              >







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jon Newton
              I m not sure it s as obvious as that Looking at Jewish writings pre-Revelation, the world week is one strand but the idea of a preliminary reign of messiah
              Message 6 of 8 , May 29, 2010
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                I'm not sure it's as "obvious" as that

                Looking at Jewish writings pre-Revelation, the world week is one strand but the idea of a preliminary reign of messiah before the final end and the theme in Jubilees of 1000 years as a human lifespan are all feeding into it

                (Pastor) Jon Newton


                --- On Sun, 30/5/10, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

                From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                Subject: Re: [revelation-list] Re: Origin of Chiliasm
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Received: Sunday, 30 May, 2010, 8:17 AM







                 









                Of course, ultimately the concept of chiliasm goes back to the "world week" in which the world is to last 7 days of 1000 years each.

                 george

                gfsomsel



                … search for truth, hear truth,

                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

                defend the truth till death.



                - Jan Hus

                _________



                ________________________________

                From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>

                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com

                Sent: Sat, May 29, 2010 12:38:37 PM

                Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Origin of Chiliasm



                 



                And rightly so Jan!



                I will also mention that Jubilees chapter 23 and 1:26-29 may be associated with the temporary messianic reign. I think that might be given in an article I mentioned in an earlier post.



                J. W. Bailey, "The Temporary Messianic Reign in the Literature of Early Judaism," Journal of Biblical Literature, 53,.2 (1934): 170-187



                What is interesting to me is that Justin relates the life of Adam to a millennial reign, while Irenaeus thinks of it in terms of the life of Christ. That reminds me of Papias' assertion that the earliest expositors in Alexandria agreed that the creation week was an allegory of the life of Christ. That is the structure I see in Revelation, and the argument I put forward in my book.



                Alan Fuller

                http://www.lulu.com/arfuller



                --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:

                >

                > Incidentally, perhaps I shouldn't think things are too obvious, but I was struck by the similarity between the Papias quotation and that of 2 Baruch.

                >

                >  george

                > gfsomsel

                >

                >

                > … search for truth, hear truth,

                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,

                > defend the truth till death.

                >

                >

                > - Jan Hus

                > _________

                >

                >

                >

                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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