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Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse

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  • e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n
    Thank you to Revelation Resources for giving a link to E. S. Constantinou, Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse. In it I found that Andrew of Caesarea
    Message 1 of 7 , Apr 10, 2010
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      Thank you to Revelation Resources for giving a link to E. S. Constantinou, Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse.

      In it I found that Andrew of Caesarea reported that Papias attributed the Apocalypse to the apostle John.
    • George F Somsel
      I previously posted a larger portion of this.  It is from Philip of Side. Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, who was a disciple of John the Theologian and a
      Message 2 of 7 , Apr 10, 2010
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        I previously posted a larger portion of this.  It is from Philip of Side.
        Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, who was a disciple of John the Theologian and a companion of Polycarp, wrote five books on the sayings of the Lord. In them he made a list of apostles, and after Peter and John, Philip and Thomas and Matthew, he included among disciples of the Lord Aristion and another John, whom he also called "the Elder." So, some think that this John is the author of the two short catholic epistles which circulate under the name of John, because the men of the earliest period accept only the first epistle. And some have mistakenly thought that the Apocalypse was also his. And Papias is also in error regarding the millennium, and so is Irenaeus, who follows him.
        It hardly seems surprising that Andreas of Caesarea would hold that the Apostle John wrote the Apocalypse since Justin also held that opinion so that this tradition had arisen prior to 165 ad when Justin was Martyred.  Since Andreas wrote in the 7th cent, this hardly qualifies as weighty evidence. 

         george
        gfsomsel


        … search for truth, hear truth,
        learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        defend the truth till death.


        - Jan Hus
        _________




        ________________________________
        From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
        To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 9:06:08 AM
        Subject: [revelation-list] Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse

         

        Thank you to Revelation Resources for giving a link to E. S. Constantinou, Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse.

        In it I found that Andrew of Caesarea reported that Papias attributed the Apocalypse to the apostle John.


         




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n
        Thank you. I was referring to page 53 where Constantinou says. But Andrew is a credible source for confirming that Papias himself confirmed the apostolic
        Message 3 of 7 , Apr 10, 2010
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          Thank you. I was referring to page 53 where Constantinou says.

          "But Andrew is a credible source for confirming that Papias himself confirmed the apostolic authorship of Revelation. Andrew evidently had first-hand knowledge of "Dominical Oracles" since he quotes from Papias at a later point in the commentary. Hence Andrew serves indirectly as a witness to the acceptance of Revelation as apostolic in the early second century by an Asiatic Father."

          Philip of Side is saying some thought "another John" wrote the two later epistles, and some mistakenly thought "another John" wrote the Apocalypse. Correct?

          Alan Fuller

          http://www.lulu.com/arfuller

          --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
          >
          > I previously posted a larger portion of this.  It is from Philip of Side.
          > Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, who was a disciple of John the Theologian and a companion of Polycarp, wrote five books on the sayings of the Lord. In them he made a list of apostles, and after Peter and John, Philip and Thomas and Matthew, he included among disciples of the Lord Aristion and another John, whom he also called "the Elder." So, some think that this John is the author of the two short catholic epistles which circulate under the name of John, because the men of the earliest period accept only the first epistle. And some have mistakenly thought that the Apocalypse was also his. And Papias is also in error regarding the millennium, and so is Irenaeus, who follows him.
          > It hardly seems surprising that Andreas of Caesarea would hold that the Apostle John wrote the Apocalypse since Justin also held that opinion so that this tradition had arisen prior to 165 ad when Justin was Martyred.  Since Andreas wrote in the 7th cent, this hardly qualifies as weighty evidence. 
          >
          >  george
          > gfsomsel
          >
          >
          > … search for truth, hear truth,
          > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          > defend the truth till death.
          >
          >
          > - Jan Hus
          > _________

          >
        • George F Somsel
          Too many another s.  Let s make it clearer.  Philip said that the Elder wrote the epistles and that some mistakenly thought that the Elder also wrote
          Message 4 of 7 , Apr 10, 2010
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            Too many "another"s.  Let's make it clearer.  Philip said that "the Elder" wrote the epistles and that some mistakenly thought that "the Elder" also wrote the Apocalypse.
             george
            gfsomsel


            … search for truth, hear truth,
            learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            defend the truth till death.


            - Jan Hus
            _________




            ________________________________
            From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
            To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 1:33:04 PM
            Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse

             


            Thank you. I was referring to page 53 where Constantinou says.

            "But Andrew is a credible source for confirming that Papias himself confirmed the apostolic authorship of Revelation. Andrew evidently had first-hand knowledge of "Dominical Oracles" since he quotes from Papias at a later point in the commentary. Hence Andrew serves indirectly as a witness to the acceptance of Revelation as apostolic in the early second century by an Asiatic Father."

            Philip of Side is saying some thought "another John" wrote the two later epistles, and some mistakenly thought "another John" wrote the Apocalypse. Correct?

            Alan Fuller

            http://www.lulu com/arfuller

            --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > I previously posted a larger portion of this.  It is from Philip of Side.
            > Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, who was a disciple of John the Theologian and a companion of Polycarp, wrote five books on the sayings of the Lord. In them he made a list of apostles, and after Peter and John, Philip and Thomas and Matthew, he included among disciples of the Lord Aristion and another John, whom he also called "the Elder." So, some think that this John is the author of the two short catholic epistles which circulate under the name of John, because the men of the earliest period accept only the first epistle. And some have mistakenly thought that the Apocalypse was also his. And Papias is also in error regarding the millennium, and so is Irenaeus, who follows him.
            > It hardly seems surprising that Andreas of Caesarea would hold that the Apostle John wrote the Apocalypse since Justin also held that opinion so that this tradition had arisen prior to 165 ad when Justin was Martyred.  Since Andreas wrote in the 7th cent, this hardly qualifies as weighty evidence. 
            >
            >  george
            > gfsomsel
            >
            >
            > … search for truth, hear truth,
            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
            > defend the truth till death.
            >
            >
            > - Jan Hus
            > _________

            >







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n
            ... Another John and the Elder are the same John. Correct? Some mistakenly thought another John, the Elder, wrote the Apocalypse. Am I right?
            Message 5 of 7 , Apr 10, 2010
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              I apologize for becoming even more confused about this. In your first post:

              >>another John, whom he also called "the Elder."<<

              "Another John" and "the Elder" are the same John. Correct?

              Some mistakenly thought another John, the Elder, wrote the Apocalypse. Am I right?

              --- In revelation-list@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
              >
              > Too many "another"s.  Let's make it clearer.  Philip said that "the Elder" wrote the epistles and that some mistakenly thought that "the Elder" also wrote the Apocalypse.
              >  george
              > gfsomsel
              >
              >
              > … search for truth, hear truth,
              > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              > defend the truth till death.
              >
              >
              > - Jan Hus
              > _________
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
              > To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 1:33:04 PM
              > Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              > Thank you. I was referring to page 53 where Constantinou says.
              >
              > "But Andrew is a credible source for confirming that Papias himself confirmed the apostolic authorship of Revelation. Andrew evidently had first-hand knowledge of "Dominical Oracles" since he quotes from Papias at a later point in the commentary. Hence Andrew serves indirectly as a witness to the acceptance of Revelation as apostolic in the early second century by an Asiatic Father."
              >
              > Philip of Side is saying some thought "another John" wrote the two later epistles, and some mistakenly thought "another John" wrote the Apocalypse. Correct?
              >
              > Alan Fuller
              >
              > http://www.lulu com/arfuller
              >
              > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@ .> wrote:
              > >
              > > I previously posted a larger portion of this.  It is from Philip of Side.
              > > Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, who was a disciple of John the Theologian and a companion of Polycarp, wrote five books on the sayings of the Lord. In them he made a list of apostles, and after Peter and John, Philip and Thomas and Matthew, he included among disciples of the Lord Aristion and another John, whom he also called "the Elder." So, some think that this John is the author of the two short catholic epistles which circulate under the name of John, because the men of the earliest period accept only the first epistle. And some have mistakenly thought that the Apocalypse was also his. And Papias is also in error regarding the millennium, and so is Irenaeus, who follows him.
              > > It hardly seems surprising that Andreas of Caesarea would hold that the Apostle John wrote the Apocalypse since Justin also held that opinion so that this tradition had arisen prior to 165 ad when Justin was Martyred.  Since Andreas wrote in the 7th cent, this hardly qualifies as weighty evidence. 
              > >
              > >  george
              > > gfsomsel
              > >
              > >
              > > … search for truth, hear truth,
              > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
              > > defend the truth till death.
              > >
              > >
              > > - Jan Hus
              > > _________
              >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • George F Somsel
              That s the way I read it.  george gfsomsel … search for truth, hear truth, learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the truth till
              Message 6 of 7 , Apr 10, 2010
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                That's the way I read it.
                 george
                gfsomsel


                … search for truth, hear truth,
                learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                defend the truth till death.


                - Jan Hus
                _________




                ________________________________
                From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
                To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 1:50:44 PM
                Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse

                 


                I apologize for becoming even more confused about this. In your first post:

                >>another John, whom he also called "the Elder."<<

                "Another John" and "the Elder" are the same John. Correct?

                Some mistakenly thought another John, the Elder, wrote the Apocalypse. Am I right?

                --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Too many "another"s.  Let's make it clearer.  Philip said that "the Elder" wrote the epistles and that some mistakenly thought that "the Elder" also wrote the Apocalypse.
                >  george
                > gfsomsel
                >
                >
                > … search for truth, hear truth,
                > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                > defend the truth till death.
                >
                >
                > - Jan Hus
                > _________
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ____________ _________ _________ __
                > From: e_s_c_h_a_t_ o_n <rocsy@...>
                > To: revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com
                > Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 1:33:04 PM
                > Subject: [revelation- list] Re: Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                > Thank you. I was referring to page 53 where Constantinou says.
                >
                > "But Andrew is a credible source for confirming that Papias himself confirmed the apostolic authorship of Revelation. Andrew evidently had first-hand knowledge of "Dominical Oracles" since he quotes from Papias at a later point in the commentary. Hence Andrew serves indirectly as a witness to the acceptance of Revelation as apostolic in the early second century by an Asiatic Father."
                >
                > Philip of Side is saying some thought "another John" wrote the two later epistles, and some mistakenly thought "another John" wrote the Apocalypse. Correct?
                >
                > Alan Fuller
                >
                > http://www.lulu com/arfuller
                >
                > --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@ .> wrote:
                > >
                > > I previously posted a larger portion of this.  It is from Philip of Side.
                > > Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, who was a disciple of John the Theologian and a companion of Polycarp, wrote five books on the sayings of the Lord. In them he made a list of apostles, and after Peter and John, Philip and Thomas and Matthew, he included among disciples of the Lord Aristion and another John, whom he also called "the Elder." So, some think that this John is the author of the two short catholic epistles which circulate under the name of John, because the men of the earliest period accept only the first epistle. And some have mistakenly thought that the Apocalypse was also his. And Papias is also in error regarding the millennium, and so is Irenaeus, who follows him.
                > > It hardly seems surprising that Andreas of Caesarea would hold that the Apostle John wrote the Apocalypse since Justin also held that opinion so that this tradition had arisen prior to 165 ad when Justin was Martyred.  Since Andreas wrote in the 7th cent, this hardly qualifies as weighty evidence. 
                > >
                > >  george
                > > gfsomsel
                > >
                > >
                > > … search for truth, hear truth,
                > > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                > > defend the truth till death.
                > >
                > >
                > > - Jan Hus
                > > _________
                >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • George F Somsel
                 Papias was the bishop of Hierapolis, a city in Asia Minor near Laodicea and Colossae. His   I seriously doubt that Papias chiliasm was based on
                Message 7 of 7 , Apr 10, 2010
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                   Papias was the bishop of Hierapolis, a city in Asia Minor near Laodicea and Colossae. His
                   
                  I seriously doubt that Papias' chiliasm was based on Revelation.  It seems rather to be based on some Jewish writings.  I defy you to find anything related to what he says regarding the (supposed) millenial kingdom:
                   
                   "The blessing thus foretold undoubtedly belongs to the times of the kingdom, when the righteous will rise from the dead and reign, when creation, too, renewed and freed from bondage, will produce an abundance of food of all kinds "from the dew of heaven and from the fertility of the earth," just as the elders, who saw John the disciple of the Lord, recalled having heard from him how the Lord used to teach about those times and say:
                   
                  "'The days will come when vines will grow, each having ten thousand shoots, and on each shoot ten thousand branches, and on each branch ten thousand twigs, and on each twig ten thousand clusters, and in each cluster ten thousand grapes, and each grape when crushed will yield twenty-five measures of wine. And when one of the saints takes hold of a cluster, another cluster will cry out, "I am better, take me, bless the Lord through me." Similarly a grain of wheat will produce ten thousand heads, and every head will have ten thousand grains, and every grain ten pounds of fine flour, white and clean. And the other fruits, seeds, and grass will produce in similar proportions, and all the animals feeding on these fruits produced by the soil will in turn become peaceful and harmonious toward one another, and fully subject to man.'"Exposition of Dominical Oracles, a fïve volume treatise, was composed in the first half of the second century. Only a few fragments
                  remain from this work and no fragment contains any quotations from or allusions to Révélation.183 Most of our knowledge of Papias cornes from Eusebius of Caesarea. Although Eusebius tells us that Papias was a chiliast, Eusebius gives no indication whether this belief was based on the Apocalypse of John or some other tradition. Eusebius provides no information about Papias' attitude toward or knowledge about the Apocalypse. But Andrew is a crédible source for confirming that Papias himself confirmed the apostolic authorship of Révélation. Andrew evidently had first-hand knowledge of Dominical Oracles since he quotes from Papias at a later point in the commentary.184 Hence, Andrew serves indirectly as a witness to the acceptance of Révélation as apostolic in the early second century by an Asiatic Father. george
                  gfsomsel


                  … search for truth, hear truth,
                  learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  defend the truth till death.


                  - Jan Hus
                  _________




                  ________________________________
                  From: e_s_c_h_a_t_o_n <rocsy@...>
                  To: revelation-list@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sat, April 10, 2010 1:33:04 PM
                  Subject: [revelation-list] Re: Andrew of Caesarea and the Apocalypse

                   


                  Thank you. I was referring to page 53 where Constantinou says.

                  "But Andrew is a credible source for confirming that Papias himself confirmed the apostolic authorship of Revelation. Andrew evidently had first-hand knowledge of "Dominical Oracles" since he quotes from Papias at a later point in the commentary. Hence Andrew serves indirectly as a witness to the acceptance of Revelation as apostolic in the early second century by an Asiatic Father."

                  Philip of Side is saying some thought "another John" wrote the two later epistles, and some mistakenly thought "another John" wrote the Apocalypse. Correct?

                  Alan Fuller

                  http://www.lulu com/arfuller

                  --- In revelation-list@ yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
                  >
                  > I previously posted a larger portion of this.  It is from Philip of Side.
                  > Papias, bishop of Hierapolis, who was a disciple of John the Theologian and a companion of Polycarp, wrote five books on the sayings of the Lord. In them he made a list of apostles, and after Peter and John, Philip and Thomas and Matthew, he included among disciples of the Lord Aristion and another John, whom he also called "the Elder." So, some think that this John is the author of the two short catholic epistles which circulate under the name of John, because the men of the earliest period accept only the first epistle. And some have mistakenly thought that the Apocalypse was also his. And Papias is also in error regarding the millennium, and so is Irenaeus, who follows him.
                  > It hardly seems surprising that Andreas of Caesarea would hold that the Apostle John wrote the Apocalypse since Justin also held that opinion so that this tradition had arisen prior to 165 ad when Justin was Martyred.  Since Andreas wrote in the 7th cent, this hardly qualifies as weighty evidence. 
                  >
                  >  george
                  > gfsomsel
                  >
                  >
                  > … search for truth, hear truth,
                  > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                  > defend the truth till death.
                  >
                  >
                  > - Jan Hus
                  > _________

                  >







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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